Originally posted by RJHindsI've been waiting for someone to mention this for ages!
The plants were watered from a mist coming up from ground and what you
would call dew. God did not cause it to rain on the earth until the Flood of
Noah's day.
P.S. Believe it or not, there were no rain forest until after Noah's flood.
They were mist forests.
Some time ago, someone was talking about the flood and rainbow and I asked whether light behaved differently back then. The response was that light always behaved the same but there was no rain.
So I will ask you the same question I asked way back then. Rain is a consequence of evaporation and condensation. No rain implies no evaporation and/or condensation. Mist is reliant on exactly the same processes. So if you don't allow rain, then you don't allow mist either.
Also, plants take up water and nutrients from the ground through capillary action. This relies on evaporation of water from the leaves. If there is no evaporation then capillary action stops and plants can't grow. So if you don't allow rain (and mist) then you also don't allow plant growth. Plants must have been very different before the flood.
Also, mammals keep cool by sweating, which again relies on evaporation. So how did mammals regulate their temperature? Mammals must have been very different before the flood.
Finally, a rainbow does not require rain, it only requires droplets of water in the air, like the spray from a waterfall. Or mist. So if you are disallowing rain because you think that means there were no rainbows, then you have a huge amount to do to explain all these other effects above and you still have not shown that there were no rainbows!
Epic Fail!
--- Penguin.
<edit>Not related but I did a quick Google of "how to prevent rain" and found this absolutely amazing site: http://spellsandmagic.com/page2.html Some of the new-age / pagan bollox here is absolutely superb! Evangelical Christians are not the only nutters, by a long way.</edit>
Originally posted by Proper KnobThe Bible is not a scientific text book, its a record of humanity. I believe, according to
Let me get this straight, JW's accept the earth is 4.5 billion years old right? You believe the Biblical flood happened sometime in the last few thousand years, so you believe it didn't rained on this planet for nearly all of it's 4.5 billion year existence?
Is this your view as well Rob?
the Bible, that prior to the flood there was a 'canopy' of moisture which surrounded the
earth and provided moisture for things to grow, but dont quote me on it for i have not
studied it in any great depth.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWell in that case there would have been constant rainbows during the hours of daylight. Rainbows are an unavoidable consequence of the nature of light.
The Bible is not a scientific text book, its a record of humanity. I believe, according to
the Bible, that prior to the flood there was a 'canopy' of moisture which surrounded the
earth and provided moisture for things to grow, but dont quote me on it for i have not
studied it in any great depth.
Stopping raindrops falling from clouds does not stop rainbows. You have to have different fundamental properties of light, and that means different fundamental physics.
You could have rainbows appearing before the flood but this special one after the flood appearing in a clear blue cloudless sky, or maybe in the middle of a moonless night. That would make that one rainbow a miracle and avoid my awkward questions. But you can't have that rainbow being the first ever without vast changes to the workings of Life, the Universe and Everything.
Suggesting that there were no rainbows before that one just reveals an ignorance of the implications of basic physics. As you say, you have "not studied it in any great depth". The temptation is to suggest that you accept the word of your preacher unquestioningly.
--- Penguin.
Originally posted by PenguinI disagree. If the whole earth was permanently overcast, there would be no rainbows.
Well in that case there would have been constant rainbows during the hours of daylight. Rainbows are an unavoidable consequence of the nature of light.
A rainbow requires unobstructed sunlight reflecting off raindrops.
You never get rainbows when the sky is overcast.
Originally posted by twhiteheadExactly. The Bible says there was an "expance ( division ) of the waters". Gen 1:6,7.
I disagree. If the whole earth was permanently overcast, there would be no rainbows.
A rainbow requires unobstructed sunlight reflecting off raindrops.
You never get rainbows when the sky is overcast.
So by God dividing the waters that were availabe on the earth it would have made a constant cloud cover over the entire earth which would have created a hot house affect and would have created a higher humidity here on the surface. No rain needed to sustain all life with rain. Plus there were still rivers and lakes and plenty of ground water to feed all the root systems of the plants.
As a result of this constant humid climate over all the earth there would have been no deserts or the rain forest we see today because there would have been no extremes we see now and those extremes today are generally a result of the direct sunlight we have.
That direct sunlight we also have now is the main ingrediant of fueling the drastic weather the earth has. Remove that direct sunlight and the hurricanes would not happen as well as tornados and blizzards and severe storms in general.
The earth before the flood and the release of the sunlight now reaching the surface of the earth would have been a paradise and even things such as skin cancer from direct sunlight would no doubt exist.
Plus the fact that many unearthed animals in very cold regions of the higher and colder latitudes has been found with green and tropical like plants in their mouths prove this hot house affect being far more north then what exist today.
Hmm, interesting. So constant overcast and 100% humidity caused by God deliberately maintaining a cloud layer, rather than having different physics before the flood. A bit like Venus then but with water rather than sulfuric acid clouds. I need to think about the implications of this.
I wonder how many references there are to the sun and the moon in the bible prior to the flood. Of course the Egyptians worshipped the Sun as a god...
Any climate scientists here? Could we have constant, even, water-based cloud with the physics of today without God's continuous intervention from Day-1 to maintain it or different physics beforehand?
Any botanists here? How well would Juniper bushes, Norway Spruce and Orchids do in extremely high humidity?
--- Penguin.
Originally posted by PenguinPlants are highly adaptable. I live in Portland Oregon and have quite a nice catcus garden going out on my patio. I don't protect them in anyway and they are doing fine.
Hmm, interesting. So constant overcast and 100% humidity caused by God deliberately maintaining a cloud layer, rather than having different physics before the flood. A bit like Venus then but with water rather than sulfuric acid clouds. I need to think about the implications of this.
I wonder how many references there are to the sun and the moon in the bi would Juniper bushes, Norway Spruce and Orchids do in extremely high humidity?
--- Penguin.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_plants_adapt_to_their_environment
Originally posted by PenguinI'm sure you've visited a green house and see the affects of the plants there. Also I live in the Portland Orgon area and this is one of the most beautiful places on the planet with plants. Mostly overcast and humid...
Hmm, interesting. So constant overcast and 100% humidity caused by God deliberately maintaining a cloud layer, rather than having different physics before the flood. A bit like Venus then but with water rather than sulfuric acid clouds. I need to think about the implications of this.
I wonder how many references there are to the sun and the moon in the bi ...[text shortened]... would Juniper bushes, Norway Spruce and Orchids do in extremely high humidity?
--- Penguin.
Originally posted by PenguinDon't forget that Noah only took animals on the ark, not plants.
Any botanists here? How well would Juniper bushes, Norway Spruce and Orchids do in extremely high humidity?
Also, I think that some people believe that all animals were vegetarian before the flood.
So maybe there was a different type of plant back then and God replanted after the flood.
Originally posted by twhiteheadAlso the seeds of plants can float for long periods of time and still germinate.
Don't forget that Noah only took animals on the ark, not plants.
Also, I think that some people believe that all animals were vegetarian before the flood.
So maybe there was a different type of plant back then and God replanted after the flood.
Tree Pysiology: Winter Adaptations of Trees
Trees must have adaptations to survive the cold and drying conditions of winter. Trees cannot change their location or behavior like animals can, so they must rely on physiological and structural adaptations.
The height advantage of trees becomes a liability in the winter, as tissues are exposed to the weather. There are four basic strategies that trees employ.
1. Either leaf drop or adaptations for leaf retention.
2. A physiological acclimatization process.
3. Resolution of water issues.
4. Methods of reducing mechanical damage.
Broadleaf trees (hardwoods) drop their leaves during the winter, avoiding the problems of maintaining foliage in cold and dry conditions. Conifers (softwoods) retain foliage and have special adaptations in order to do so (better stomate control and a waxy coating called cutin).
All trees under an acclimatization process. Like leaf drop, the process is initiated by changes in photoperiod and is controlled by hormones and other chemicals. The process also exploits the physical properties of water.
Winter conditions make finding sources of liquid water and transporting water a challenge. Water loss is minimized in several ways. Water can be obtained from the ground, within the tree, or from the subnivean (under snow) micro-environment. Conifers have special cell adaptations to facilitate water transport whenever temperatures allow it.
Snow and ice accumulation can cause breakage, especially under windy conditions. Conifers have growth patterns that minimize the chances of damage occurring. Dramatic loss in vegetation for animal consumption increases pressure on woody tissues, especially foliage, buds, and bark. Browse damage can be significant in many regions of Michigan. Lastly, pollutants from highways, particularly road salts and exhaust, can damage trees, especially those more vulnerable to these chemicals.
I found this interesting that we think of many trees that live in the moderate and colder climates as adapting which they do. They do survive there but they loose their leaves to be able to survive the cold. They don't prefer it but just survive. The dropping of leaves is a survival mode they go into so not to die.
If they were in a constant warmer climate they would never loose their leaves and could produce fuit all year just as the Bible described.
Originally posted by galveston75I am a fully qualified horticulturist among other things. Also some knowledge in basic botany.
Also the seeds of plants can float for long periods of time and still germinate.
Seeds of most species of plants will not float on water and if all the land was truly flooded, we would not see many species of plants that we see today because they would have been made extinct virtually instantly they were flooded. Many modern plant species are adapted to saturated conditions but many are not and cannot stand even a brief exposure to a flood -not even their seeds. Amongst these are some of the cacti species, certain wild tomato species, Fittonia, ginger, and some of the flaxes:
http://www.plantdatabase.co.uk/Mountain_flax_Tricolor
“...It has average drought tolerance and no flood tolerance. ...”
-the same goes for its seed.
If you ever over-watered a cactus pot plant you may soon have learned that you can quickly turn it into a rotting purified mess.
So this is proof that there couldn't have been a flood that covered all land unless, of course, you either allowed a few million years since the flood so all those flood sensitive plants could re-evolve (there would be big problems with that -the same species cannot "re-evolve"; only evolve ) or such things as Fittonia, ginger and live flax pot plants were put on Noah's Ark!
Originally posted by galveston75None of this changes the fact that some modern plant species are unable to survive any flood including their seed.
Tree Pysiology: Winter Adaptations of Trees
Trees must have adaptations to survive the cold and drying conditions of winter. Trees cannot change their location or behavior like animals can, so they must rely on physiological and structural adaptations.
The height advantage of trees becomes a liability in the winter, as tissues are exposed to the w ...[text shortened]... hey would never loose their leaves and could produce fuit all year just as the Bible described.