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Originally posted by Proper KnobA Parable of Religion and the Real
Dasa, can you explain why these words don't apply to you -Religion means to surrender to God. It doesn't matter what religion you profess. It doesn't matter. But you must learn how to obey the Supreme Lord. That is religion. Religion does not mean that you stamp some stereotype religion, "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Bud naticism. Religion means how one has become devoted to God. That is religion.
There are those who try to build
walls around a freshwater sea,
so that any who are thirsty
must drink only from one spigot—
Those who have seen behind the walls
scale them—and just go swimming.
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Note: I have used the term “the Real” to refer to the all-in-all ground to which (or “to whom”, for those that prefer—I am not making an argument on that here) to which religions (and religious language, art and practices), at their best, point or allude. The quest for immersion in the Real, as opposed to immersion in religion, is sometimes called “spirituality”.
The Real is prior to all language (and image, and thought) used in reference to it—and, partly because all views are perspectival (since we are of it, and not outside it, no one having “a view from nowhere” ), all such language is, even when useful, deficient. The “spiritual masters” (for lack of a better term for various roshis, rabbis, gurus, Sufi murshids, etc.) of every religion have realized this. There is propositional/descriptive language—and there is the language of metaphor, myth, allegory, etc. ; they are all valid, each in its own domain. There is also language that is intended to be allusive or elicitive, as is the case with lyric poetry, parable, deliberate paradox.
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EDIT: I have referred to “the Real”, above, as “the all-in-all ground”—but the Real is a gestalt which includes the (explicate) figures-forms-manifestations as well as the (implicate) ground. Obviously, this is a nondualist view.
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Originally posted by Dasa
In responding to my post you have made 5 false statements to me.
In your rant you have twisted and juggled my words dishonestly.
False statement 1. When You click on forums you are given a list of forum topics to select / and the debating forum is listed under DEBATES / and the spirituality forum is not for debates / because true religion and spirituality ...[text shortened]... instigated in your responding post are forgiven / but they are still dishonest and unacceptable.
Spirituality
Debate and general discussion of the supernatural, religion, and the life after.
Notice the word 'debate'? You really ought to check your facts before you go off on one.
So, to be clear then. Do you believe that Muslim men who do not rape, murder, plunder and pillage should be allowed to continue to practice their religion unfettered, bring up their children in the Islamic faith etc.
Yes or no?
- Joined
- 16 Jan 07
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- 95105
Originally posted by Dasa"They believe in the random and unintelligent appearance of the cosmos and everything in it "
This forum has been hijacked by bullies and agitators.
The atheistic beliefs of these bullies have been defeated and exposed numerous times and yet they shamelessly advocate their nonsense and absurd teachings.
They spend all day in the spirituality forum and are not the slightest bit interested in learning about spirituality and true religion.
They th ...[text shortened]... they themselves have intelligence and everyone else has intelligence.
I find this repugnant.
"They argue that life just popped into existence after a lightning bolt struck a puddle of mud and then presto out of that puddle we got / elephants and cats and dogs and birds and cows and bee,s and horses"
dasa, as atheists think neither of these things does this mean you are being dishonest in saying they do? i thought you abhorred dishonesty???
Originally posted by Proper KnobHere is a similar view to that of His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, by the Sufi Hazrat Inayat Khan. Although Inayat held lineage in more than one traditional Muslim Sufi tariqas, he also founded the universal (universalist) Sufi movement—
Dasa, can you explain why these words don't apply to you -Religion means to surrender to God. It doesn't matter what religion you profess. It doesn't matter. But you must learn how to obey the Supreme Lord. That is religion. Religion does not mean that you stamp some stereotype religion, "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Bud ...[text shortened]... naticism. Religion means how one has become devoted to God. That is religion.
Inayat began a tour of the sacred sites across India, and early in that adventure, he met the son of Guru Manek Prabhu who asked:
"What has brought you here?" said he and Inayat replied: "I have heard that the home of Manek Prabhu is not only a religious temple, but a centre of music also and as I have taken this tour to pay homage to the holy men living on the soil of India, I first chose to visit this place." "But I am very surprised that you have chosen our place, instead of choosing the place of some Muslim Saint," remarked the astonished youth. To this Inayat replied: "Muslim or Hindu are only outward distinctions, the Truth is one, God is one, life is one. To me there is no such thing as two. Two is only one plus one."
—From: http://wahiduddin.net/hik/hik_origins.htm
Here is the nondualist understanding of God that Inayat learned from his father:
"God is in you and you are in God. As the bubble is in the ocean and the bubble is a part of the ocean and yet not separate from the ocean. For a moment it has appeared as a bubble, then it will return to that from which it has risen. So is the relation between man and God. The Prophet has said that God is closer to you than the jugular vein, which in reality means that your own body is farther from you than God is. If this be rightly interpreted, it will mean that God is the very depth of your own being."
—Ibid.
The nondualist Vedantist Sri H.W.L. Poonja uses a similar Ocean metaphor:
“Under every wave is Ocean,
under every name is substratum,
under every appearance, this is You.
If you do not forget who you are,
this appearance is the Cosmic Dance.
The Unnamable has given you this shape
to play, to love, to know thy Self.
Don’t forget this!
...
“Waves are not separate from the Ocean,
rays are not separate from the Sun, you are not separate from
Existence-Consciousness-Bliss [sat-chit-ananda].
This is a reflection of That.
…
“When waves rise, the Ocean loses nothing
and when waves fall, the Ocean gains nothing.
“The Ocean does not forget that it is a wave,
but the wave forgets that it is an Ocean.”
—Sri H.W.L. Poonja (in This: Prose and Poetry of Dancing Emptiness).
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NOTE: I have quoted nondualists here; I believe that Swami Prabhupada’s Vedanta is dualist, however.
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Originally posted by apathistA somewhat valid observation, but he apparently missed the main point and purpose of Christianity. I've read enough of the New Testament to understand Christ didn't walk around searching for perfect people to be with. He searched out the sort of people some of us would call the scum of the earth.
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mahatma Gandhi
I especially like something he said to the religionists of his day, he said he didn't come to save the righteous. They couldn't argue with that because he was telling them what they already believe about themselves, but at the same time it must have stopped them cold in their tracks. Deep down inside, where we all really live, I don't think anyone actually believes he is righeous enough to live up to Gods standards, because that would mean he believes he is Gods equal.
There are of course exceptions to this, but exceptions to a rule do not disprove the rule. God can easily be displaced in our own mind by ourselves, or by someone else we might happen to admire, which really isn't hard to believe since we can see examples of this every day... lust for power and recognition (of self importance) can naturally lead anyone in that direction.
Originally posted by lemon limeI would like to suggest that you read the New Testament a bit more .. actually a lot more.
A somewhat valid observation, but he apparently missed the main point and purpose of Christianity. I've read enough of the New Testament to understand Christ didn't walk around searching for perfect people to be with. He searched out the sort of people some of us would call the scum of the earth.
I especially like something he said to the high a ...[text shortened]... There are of course exceptions to this, but exceptions to a rule do not disprove the rule.
You are confusing the purpose of Christ coming with the purpose of Christianity. Christ came to save sinners from sin and death. On that we agree. In order to save people from themselves he did go around hanging out with sinners and publicans and winos and ordinary folk. Apart from that, he did search for good people to form his group of disciples who went around preaching. Not just the twelve but there were another 70 recorded and who knows how many more. These were all given the power of the Holy Spirit to deal with whatever issues that could arise. These are not 'scum of the earth'. I can provide references for that if you like.
Now the purpose of Christianity is to draw people away from sin and selfishness, toward love and charity and good works. Do you want references .. I can quote you dozens and dozens to prove that. In fact when Christ returns he will surround himself with the righteous and cast the sinners into destruction.
All the sinners who Christ met he told them go and sin no more ... SIN NO MORE. Christ is interested in sinners who are interested in repentance and a life of righteousness and good works thereafter.
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Originally posted by Rajk999I admit my reading is incomplete and sketchy, but I am aware of more than just that one verse in the New Testament. I started by reading the four gospels and couldn't read any more for a few years... I was stunned to discover how some denominations have actually gone to the trouble of doing the opposite of what Jesus was saying. Like "call no man your father", and "pray in secret and you will be rewarded openly", and do not just repeat the same memorized speech over and over again, but actually talk to God like you believe he is listening... how hard can that be? And then there was a brief encounter with a woman who was praising Mary, and Jesus said no to that, we should instead praise God. Does any of this sound disturbingly familiar? It does to me.
I would like to suggest that you read the New Testament a bit more .. actually a lot more.
You are confusing the purpose of Christ coming with the purpose of Christianity. Christ came to save sinners from sin and death. On that we agree. In order to save people from themselves he did go around hanging out with sinners and publicans and winos and ordinary inners who are interested in repentance and a life of righteousness and good works thereafter.
There are more examples of direct contradiction to the teachings of Jesus in the new testament. When I started reading what Paul had to say I ran into the same problem... such as "do not forbid your priests from marrying."
This is almost unbelievable. It's clear the same mindset of the hypocrites back then still exist today... Jesus pointed out who the hypocrites were back then, and they are still around today, only now they are doing it in HIS name. I don't mean to offend anyone here, but I don't think it can be avoided... it's all right there in the New Testament! When I was an atheist I didn't bother to argue with anyone about God, because I didn't believe he existed. But now that I've reconsidered I'm not about to let myself get drawn into some fake cardboard castle, and become a Christian in name only. Some christians need to take a long hard look at what they are doing in Christs name... either take it seriously, or don't pretend you are honoring Christ. It's really that simple, and a hell of a lot more honest!!
Edit: I'm not actually reacting to you, I don't have a problem with anything you said. I'm just being an old fart who momentarily got caught up in his own memories... there's still a lot of junk for me to sort through, about 60 or more years worth of junk up there in my attic.
Originally posted by lemon limeHats off to you pal for keeping away from mainstream Christianity. There are loads of hypocrites and shysters out there just looking to keep up appearances and make a buck. Christ will deal with them.
I admit my reading is incomplete and sketchy, but I am aware of more than just that one verse in the New Testament. I started by reading the four gospels and couldn't read any more for a few years... I was stunned to discover how some denominations have actually gone to the trouble of doing the opposite of what Jesus was saying. Like "call no man your fat ...[text shortened]... to sort through, about 60 or more years worth of junk up there in my attic.
You are on the right track and you seem to have the guts to do the right thing .. not a very common trait around here. Just keep in mind what Christ said and what Paul preached and you will be fine. I mean dont just keep in mind; actually DO what they said to do.
Anyway lets not pollute the thread as we are off topic. See you around on other relevant threads.
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Originally posted by Rajk999As near as I can tell, the topic (OP) here has to with hijacking a forum that is being swamped and controled by people who naturally oppose the idea of spirituality. To be fair the atheists feel they are being put upon as well, the only difference being they seem to think the science forum is the natural home for atheism. I don't think so, I think if there is going to be a spirituality forum here then there should also be a special place for atheists to go. They can talk about what they don't believe, and comfort one another in the knowledge that people who don't agree with them are too dumb to know there isn't anything beyond what we able to touch or smell or see... or eat... or smell. It could be a good ol' boys club house for the spiritually impaired.
Hats off to you pal for keeping away from mainstream Christianity. There are loads of hypocrites and shysters out there just looking to keep up appearances and make a buck. Christ will deal with them.
You are on the right track and you seem to have the guts to do the right thing .. not a very common trait around here. Just keep in mind what Christ said a ...[text shortened]... nyway lets not pollute the thread as we are off topic. See you around on other relevant threads.
We could also set up a forum for those who just can't resist getting into the other sides face with cheap wit and a superior attitude. We could call that one the Battle Zone... christians and buddhists and hairy krishnas could sqaure off against the heathens, and the quantum mechanics group could square off with old timers like me who don't have a problem with QM but still think relativity is king. A battle zone for anyone.... it doesn't have to be only the Christians vs the I don't believe it's and their tag team partners, the I don't knows.
Anyway, it's only fair atheists should have a forum devoted to what they don't believe, then they might stop trying to hog the science forum as though it's their natural home and they somehow own it. With their own special forum they don't need to feel threatened by anyone who doesn't believe in what they don't believe in ..(?).. I mean, believes in not believing... doesn't believe in believing??? Oh Good Grief!!! How am I supposed to define a group that defines itself by what they don't believe?
Originally posted by lemon limeThe OP is the rantings and ravings of a well known lunatic.
As near as I can tell, the topic (OP) here has to with hijacking a forum that is being swamped and controled by people who naturally oppose the idea of spirituality. To be fair the atheists feel they are being put upon as well, the only difference being they seem to think the science forum is the natural home for atheism. I don't think so, I think if ther ...[text shortened]... osed to define a group that defines itself by what they [b]don't believe?[/b]