Hitler

Originally posted by FMF
I have explained countless times exactly what is the source of my sense of right and wrong and how it guides my attempts to make morally sound decisions as I live my life.

Yes indeed, but you haven't told me how you know that your sense of right and wrong is the correct sense and why someone with a different sense is wrong. You haven't done this because you obviously can't, due to your presuppositions on morality.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
The words 'objective' and 'subjective' are commonly used in a discussion of ethics. You calling them 'aggrandizing' is merely your coping mechanism to blank them out.

It's a pity you ignored all my attempts 30-40 pages ago to discuss the issue of how you choose to frame your opinions about things. If you have a change of heart go back and take a look..

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Yes indeed, but you haven't told me how you know that your sense of right and wrong is the correct sense and why someone with a different sense is wrong. You haven't done this because you obviously can't, due to your presuppositions on morality.

Like I've said already, if all that is stopping you from being a rapist or condoning rape, for example, is ancient Hebrew mythology, then I'll settle for that. I welcome your morally sound behaviour and I am unaffected by the degree to which superstition plays its part in it and how you choose to label those superstitions.

divegeester: Fetchmyjunk, is killing another person always morally wrong? Yes or no.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Killing, I think depends on the situation, premeditated murder, yes.

We both condemn premeditated murder. But how is your it "depends on the situation" stance different from my it "depends on the situation" stance on killing?

Originally posted by FMF
It's a pity you ignored all my attempts 30-40 pages ago to discuss the issue of how you choose to frame your opinions about things. If you have a change of heart go back and take a look..

If you do not believe that two opposing views on morality can both be right it means you do believe in an objective standard for right and wrong. You just don't want to admit it for some or other reason.

Originally posted by FMF
Like I've said already, if all that is stopping you from being a rapist or condoning rape, for example, is ancient Hebrew mythology, then I'll settle for that. I welcome your morally sound behaviour and I am unaffected by the degree to which superstition plays its part in it and how you choose to label those superstitions.

Like I've said already, if all that is stopping you from being a rapist or condoning rape, for example, is ancient Hebrew mythology, then I'll settle for that.

Is this because you believe that 'rape is wrong' is common sense, or because it is a standard set by society? Also why won't you admit that your moral sense that is based on your opinion and experience does not form a 'subjective opinion'?

Originally posted by FMF
We both condemn premeditated murder. But how is your it "depends on the situation" stance different from my it "depends on the situation" stance on killing?

Premeditated murder can only really be wrong if there is an objective standard for right and wrong. Else it is just coincidental that we share the same subjective opinions, like we do on 'killing'.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Premeditated murder can only really be wrong if there is an objective standard for right and wrong. Else it is just coincidental that we share the same subjective opinions, like we do on 'killing'.

OK, I understand what you have said. And, so, whatever the "it depends on the situation" aspect results in you doing ~ whatever decision you end up making about the situation, regarding whatever it depended on, and whatever you decide to do in those circumstances, even if it involves killing ~ it will be "objective" and "universally true" in your view, is that right?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Is this because you believe that 'rape is wrong' is common sense, or because it is a standard set by society? Also why won't you admit that your moral sense that is based on your opinion and experience does not form a 'subjective opinion'?

You're asking about the same things over and over and over again. I have already explained what I believe to be the sources of our moral sensibilities are (both yours and mine), and you obviously disagree. I can live with our disagreement. Asking me about the same things repeatedly - incessantly - ad nauseam - when I have made my stance and explanation clear - is achieving nothing, unless of course, your objective is to grind me down and shut me up, in which case it's maybe going to accomplish its mission soon.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Also why won't you admit that your moral sense that is based on your opinion and experience does not form a 'subjective opinion'?

I wouldn't describe my moral sensibilities as being based on opinion, as I have explained countless times (so that's why I can't "admit" to it) but if I were to use the words "subjective opinion" in the way you seek to use them, then I would perhaps characterize your unilateral declaration that your own opinions are "universal truths" and you resorting to citing supernatural phenomena as your reason to declare what you think as being "objective", and your personal liking for ancient Hebrew mythology to all be the products of your "subjective opinions".

However, I think your moral sensibilities, far from being "universal" and "absolute", are simply a product of your personal nature and nurture circumstances. The emphasis you place on ancient Hebrew mythology, for example, would be part of your "nurture" stuff.

Originally posted by FMF
OK, I understand what you have said. And, so, whatever the "it depends on the situation" aspect results in you doing ~ whatever decision you end up making about the situation, regarding whatever it depended on, and whatever you decide to do in those circumstances, even if it involves killing ~ it will be "objective" and "universally true" in your view, is that right?

Premeditated murder is always wrong, 'killing' depends on the situation and is a 'grey area'. According to your beliefs so is almost everything else apart from rape. By 'grey area' I mean it is debatable whether or not something is wrong. If you assume there is no objective standard, it means everything is debatable even rape. Yet someone you still believe rape is always wrong, which leads me to believe you actually do believe in that there must be some kind of objective standard but you won't admit it.

Originally posted by FMF
You're asking about the same things over and over and over again. I have already explained what I believe to be the sources of our moral sensibilities are (both yours and mine), and you obviously disagree. I can live with our disagreement. Asking me about the same things repeatedly - incessantly - ad nauseam - when I have made my stance and explanation clear - i ...[text shortened]... to grind me down and shut me up, in which case it's maybe going to accomplish its mission soon.

Telling me over and over what your moral sensibilities are does not deflect from the fact that you won't admit that your views on morality are only subjective opinions. It is plain for everyone to see.

Originally posted by FMF
I wouldn't describe my moral sensibilities as being based on opinion, as I have explained countless times (so that's why I can't "admit" to it) but if I were to use the words "subjective opinion" in the way you seek to use them, then I would perhaps characterize your unilateral declaration that your own opinions are "universal truths" and you resorting to citing ...[text shortened]... hasis you place on ancient Hebrew mythology, for example, would be part of your "nurture" stuff.

So if your 'nature and nurture' lead you to believe that rape is always wrong, how do you know that someone who did not experience the same 'nature and nurture' as you is wrong on their view of rape if it is different to yours?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
...you won't admit that your views on morality are only subjective opinions. It is plain for everyone to see.

I wonder how you would conduct yourself if you were worried about it not being "plain for everyone to see".

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
So if your 'nature and nurture' lead you to believe that rape is always wrong, how do you know that someone who did not experience the same 'nature and nurture' as you is wrong on their view of rape if it is different to yours?

You have already asked about this several times and I have already answered it several times.