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Originally posted by FMFIsaiah 28:10
It sounds like you're saying you don't actually HAVE to DO anything in particular (whether it be good, bad, or indifferent), as long as you THINK certain specific things about Jesus, you are "saved".
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Firstly, what one must DO is THINK along the lines and precepts delineating the terms and conditions relating to salvation established by our creator.
Agree with God. Know we are sinners in need of a saviour. Believe that Jesus died for our sins, then is one "saved".
After that DO everything you can to bring your life in alignment with the will and purpose of God for your life.
It can't get any simpler than that.
Originally posted by josephwIs that what you believe "judgement" is about: whether the 'everything you can do' was enough or not?
Isaiah 28:10
[b]Believe that Jesus died for our sins, then is one "saved". After that DO everything you can to bring your life in alignment with the will and purpose of God for your life.
Originally posted by josephwIt can get simpler than that:
Isaiah 28:10
[b]For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Firstly, what one must DO is THINK along the lines and precepts delineating the terms and conditions relating to salvation established by our creator.
Agree with God. Know we are sinners in need of a saviour. B ...[text shortened]... alignment with the will and purpose of God for your life.
It can't get any simpler than that.[/b]
'God saves the righteous.'
Originally posted by KellyJayI guess my point was, that through the lens of Christianity, this may happen:
Why would a really good person fear punishment? Only sinners should, do you think there
are 'good' sinners? If each of us has fallen, Hitler included, than don't you think a God who
is Just will do what is right? If He gives mercy will it not be complete to cover every wrong
done, and if He gives His wrath will it also be complete for what each sin one has done?
Hitler asks Jesus for mercy and forgiveness before his death, and means it, and goes to heaven.
A good man who is a Buddhist, dies and goes to hell, because he didn't believe in Jesus.
An atheist, who lives a good righteous life, dies and goes to hell because he didn't believe in Jesus.
Hitler, an evil man, gets the better end of this deal?
Originally posted by chaney3You are claiming that they were righteous before God out side Jesus Christ? So you are saying that we are not all sinners before God some are in their own righteousness good enough?
I guess my point was, that through the lens of Christianity, this may happen:
Hitler asks Jesus for mercy and forgiveness before his death, and means it, and goes to heaven.
A good man who is a Buddhist, dies and goes to hell, because he didn't believe in Jesus.
An atheist, who lives a good righteous life, dies and goes to hell because he didn't believe in Jesus.
Hitler, an evil man, gets the better end of this deal?
Originally posted by KellyJayNo, I am not saying that. Forget the word righteous, it is a distraction.
You are claiming that they were righteous before God out side Jesus Christ? So you are saying that we are not all sinners before God some are in their own righteousness good enough?
In my example, Hitler goes to heaven, and two really good people go to hell because they either believed in a deity other than Jesus, or no deity at all.
This question is based on who really did Jesus die for, and if belief in Him is truly necessary.
Because if Hitler goes to heaven, with the forgiveness of Jesus, then it could imply that deeds on earth don't matter.
Originally posted by FMFSlow down please. You're getting the horse before the cart.
So good works are not optional? A Christian must both believe and do good works if he or she is to be "saved"?
"A Christian must both believe and do good works if he or she is to be "saved"?"
The answer is unequivocally NO. Here's why. At the moment, at the very moment when one realizes they are a sinner in need of a saviour, are they not just as they are at that moment, i.e. a sinner?
One comes before God just as they are, a sinner, and God receives that sinner at that moment just as they are, a sinner. The sinner, humbly, contritely, pendently, asking forgiveness, grace and mercy, that sinner will not be turned away. That sinner is at that moment "saved".
Good works come later. And not necessarily all at once. Sometimes there is much to be unlearned. The process is called sanctification. It will take a lifetime. Then comes glorification.
First there is salvation. Eternal life.
Second there is sanctification. Good works.
Thirdly there is glorification. Into the presence of God separated from sin forever.
That's it in a nutshell.
Originally posted by josephwCan believers in Jesus who don't do good works be "saved"?
Slow down please. You're getting the horse before the cart.
[b]"A Christian must both believe and do good works if he or she is to be "saved"?"
The answer is unequivocally NO. Here's why. At the moment, at the very moment when one realizes they are a sinner in need of a saviour, are they not just as they are at that moment, i.e. a sinner?
...[text shortened]... glorification. Into the presence of God separated from sin forever.
That's it in a nutshell.[/b]
Originally posted by josephwSure, he came to call the sinners to repentance. Why would he need to call the righteous to repentance? They're already saved.
Where did you get that?
Remember what Jesus said?
[b]"But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."[/b]
Originally posted by FMFDefine salvation.
Can believers in Jesus who don't do good works be "saved"?
Under the law one exercised their faith by obedience. Obedience to the law demonstrates faith. The law made provision for the "covering" of sin when one acted in faith by obedience to the law.
"But now", on this side of the cross are we not under law, but under grace. The object of our faith is Christ. Jesus kept the law and sacrificed himself, being "made sin", suffering the penalty for sin on our behalf.
The salvation we receive when we have "faith" in what Jesus did on our behalf on the cross is a "complete" salvation apart from the works of the law.
By "complete" I mean without reservation or requirement by anything we do whether good or bad.
The following is addressed to the "saved" concerning the saved.
1 Corinthians 3:14,15
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
There will be a judgement for the saved, but not for sin.
The consequences for sin by the saved person can be dire in this life.
1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Once saved always saved. It's a "complete" salvation.
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeNo one is "already" saved. You're applying a meaning without respect to the context from which the verse is taken.
Sure, he came to call the sinners to repentance. Why would he need to call the righteous to repentance? They're already saved.
You are now confabulating. 😉
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Originally posted by chaney3The Word righteous is not a distraction it is key to this discussion. You can apply the word good if you like, but the way you are using it is subjective. A good X could mean anything. I could tell you I am a good chess player, but does that mean, I am better than all the chess players I know and live by me only, not to all chess players?
No, I am not saying that. Forget the word righteous, it is a distraction.
In my example, Hitler goes to heaven, and two really good people go to hell because they either believed in a deity other than Jesus, or no deity at all.
This question is based on who really did Jesus die for, and if belief in Him is truly necessary.
Because if Hitler goes to heaven, with the forgiveness of Jesus, then it could imply that deeds on earth don't matter.
The question is, is good according to whom, one of us, or God? Since God's Word says we are all sinners who have fallen short, does even matter to you?
Originally posted by KellyJayMy questions are primarily focused on the 'belief' aspect of Jesus.
The Word righteous is not a distraction it is key to this discussion. You can apply the word good if you like, but the way you are using it is subjective. A good X could mean anything. I could tell you I am a good chess player, but does that mean, I am better than all the chess players I know and live by me only, not to all chess players?
The question i ...[text shortened]... or God? Since God's Word says we are all sinners who have fallen short, does even matter to you?
If....and I mean if, Hitler sincerely asked Jesus for mercy and forgiveness before his death, does he get forgiven and go to heaven?
While at the same time, will a Buddhist go directly to hell upon death because he did NOT believe in Jesus?
This determines whether Jesus died for everyone, or ONLY the ones who believe in Him, and what He did 2,000 years ago.