Homosexuals in heaven?

Originally posted by jaywill
FMF,

Here is what Paul wrote in First Corinthians 5 -

[b]"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God ? Do not be led astray; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor effeminate nor homosexuals nor thieves nor the covetous, not drunkards, not revilers, not the rapacious will inherit the kingdom of God.
...[text shortened]... /b] by such attempts to alter the apostle's warning there.

A classic "Slippery Slope" argument. If we let A happen, what is to keep B and C and the dreaded D from happening?

We are, jaywill, we are.

Originally posted by FMF
If you can offer some objective moral reason to condemn homosexuals that I could possibly subscribe to - some harm to others involved, some deception, some coercion, some lack of empathy - then I would be interested to hear what it is.

All I am getting, instead, is that you have internalized something you read in a book and you are regurgitating it. And to m of some inherent interpersonal common sense or virtue or generosity of spirit contained in it.

If you can offer some objective moral reason to condemn homosexuals that I could possibly subscribe to - some harm to others involved, some deception, some coercion, some lack of empathy - then I would be interested to hear what it is.

All I am getting, instead, is that you have internalized something you read in a book and you are regurgitating it.

Without a doubt I am refering to the Bible. I hold it to be God communicating with man - the Word of God.

In my reasoning process I include God's word which I believe reflects God's attitude on many things. Christ is the center.

Now this is interesting. You skeptics believe that God's Kingdom, whatever it is, should have a high standard of morality. You often complain bitterly of hypocrisy. To the average skeptic it is not at all just that religious hypocrits should, so to speak, be in any "kingdom of God".

But when the Apostle Paul expounds on the high moral standard of the kingdom of God, you're not happy. Do you really expect that your toes will not be stepped on SOMEWHERE ? Should we realistically think that only the OTHER GUY should shift nervously in his chair and being told of the high ethical standard of the kingdom of God ?

That is not realistic. I take a hit. He takes a hit. They take a hit. You take a hit. We all take a hit.

We all have to be conformed to the image of Christ to manifest Christ in our living for the reward of participation in the coming kingdom of God.

Factions are out.
Sects are out.
Jealousy is out.
Stealing is out.
Fornication is out.
Homosexuality is out.

The high ethical standard is well rounded. You and I should not expect what comes around will not touch each one of us somewhere.

But lets look at the positive side - "BUT ... the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law." (Gal. 5:22,23)

Now I will try to answer your question. Notice that the fruit of the Holy Spirit is also "self control" .

There are some sexual appetites which can run so wild as to cause a person to lose "self control". Christ knows this. So we need forgiveness and we need the sacntification of His Holy Spirit that we may gain what we lack.

Now, some forms of sexual behavior were described by the Apostle as "greedy" and "unbridled". Greedy and unbridled sexual activity Paul described as itself a form of idol worship - Idolatry.

"Put to death therefore your members which are on the earth; fornication, uncleaness, passion, evil desire, and GREEDINESS, which is idolatry;" 9Col. 3:5)

Greediness is a form of idolatry. There can be greediness in a man or woman's legitimate desire for sexual union. One can go beyond into unbridled greediness in the fulfillment of sexual drive.

Idolatry damages man whom God created for His own kingdom. Idolatry can warp and twist the inner being of a person damaging his soul and spirit for God's purpose.

What is wrong with homosexuality, you ask. The act of same sex attempting to have sexual union is clearly designated as something abhorent to God in the Old Testament especially. In the New Testament we see GREEDINESS is associated with IDOLATRY. And the implication is that both some adulterers and fornicators are carried away by unbridled greediness. "uncleaness, passion, evil desire and greediness, which is adolatry".

Based on this I include forms of unbridled heterosexual and homosexual activity. Of course greediness in areas of wealth and property can also be idolatry.

Anyway, multitudes are driven in homosexuality into a kind of greediness in lust which causes them to go against their nature. That is unless you believe that sexuality designed by God regarding the female was not intended to be matched by the male or the male's sexuality was not intended by design to be mirrored in that of the female.

Your criticism may be a criticism that you know better how the Creator SHOULD have caused the two sexes to correspond to each other. God created Adam and Eve. He did not create them Adam and Steve.

The Apostle Paul also speaks of the ongoing corruption of man by "the lust of the deceit" (Eph. 4:22). He says the believer needs to escape this ongoing deceitful, tricky currupting degradation through the renewing of the mind -

"That you put off, as regards your former manner of life, the old man, which is being corrupted according to the lusts of the deceit, And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new man, which is created according to God in righteousness and holiness of the reality."

There is something DECEITFUL working in fallen man. There is something of non-reality, deceiving man in his thought life. The mind needs to be renewed in the Holy Spirit to the righteousness and holiness of God.

Married is esteemed holy. And it is between the man and the woman - male and female. The lust of the deceit is a kind of deception working in fallen man's mind with unrealistic evil desires of a cheating nature. That is a dishonest nature from an enemy seeking to destroy the man created for God's purpose. The deception is a misleading, a cheating.

The greedy fornicator, the adulterer, the homosexual is being cheated by "the lust of the deceit" operating in fallen man's mentality.

And to me you are hiding behind this internalized-regurgitated thing as if it is, in and of itself, a stance with genuine moral substance that people who don't happen to subscribe to your book could weigh up and adopt because of some inherent interpersonal common sense or virtue or generosity of spirit contained in it.

I am "regurgitating" also the great love of Christ in His going to the cross for our salvation. This He did before we were born. He already went to such a degree for our salvation.

So we should not focus our gaze on our sins. We should look away to what Jesus has done and that before we knew anything good or bad, He had graciously furnished a remedy.

I think that you skeptics do not have a better philosophy with more understanding and more longsuffering and more empathy that that supplied by Jesus. I say let Jesus Christ get on the inside of a man - heterosexaul or homosexual. Let Him renew the mind so that we can put on the new humanity - the new man and stop being cheated with deceit and play acting.

Then we can know "holiness of the reality".

Originally posted by jaywill
There is something DECEITFUL working in fallen man.

Two homosexuals in a consensual, monogamous relationship: who is deceiving who in this relationship?

Originally posted by jaywill
Anyway, multitudes are driven in homosexuality into a kind of greediness in lust which causes them to go against their nature.

Really?

Originally posted by FMF
Two homosexuals in a consensual, monogamous relationship: who is deceiving who in this relationship?

Now we go back to the matter of God the Savior and Judge knowing all.

It is not before ME that all must come to be examined. It is before God.

We are going around now circularly. We live unto Him. We are ultimately accountable to Him. And it is Him in Jesus Christ who loves and saves us from our sins.

Yes, I may err in judgment. Christ will not err. You may say "that is consensual". It may not matter. It may not be as YOU see it to be.

It is not before you or I that all must one day appear to be judged. It is before God Who knows all.

Thankfully, He has made abundant provision for our salvation.

Originally posted by jaywill
Now we go back to the matter of God the Savior and Judge knowing all.

It is not before ME that all must come to be examined. It is before God.

We are going around now circularly. We live unto Him. We are ultimately accountable to Him. And it is Him in Jesus Christ who loves and saves us from our sins.

Yes, I may err in judgment. Christ will no ...[text shortened]... before God Who knows all.

Thankfully, He has made abundant provision for our salvation.

How is this post a reply to my post you quoted?

Once again: Two homosexuals in a consensual, monogamous relationship: who is deceiving who in this relationship?

Or do you feel homosexuals are somehow deceiving you?

Originally posted by FMF
Really?

The atmosphere is being made right for more and more people to jump on the bandwagon.

My niece's Facebook boasted of her by-sexual preferences. It is trendy. It is not only accepted to be homosexual or by-sexual. It is now cool.

This is the trend in the last few years. I think the numbers of people born with some type of genetic perculiarity is probably not too great. But today you would think that millions claim that they were born to be gay.

Why is this ? The media, the "experts", the fad, the prevailing shift in morality has more than made it acceptable to be homosexual.

I don't hate them FMF. And how do you know that I may not have been or am not somewhat GAY MYSELF ? You don't know.

I don't want to FOCUS longer on a particular sin. This is like pulling at a tight yarn of tangled threads. I am not here to preach the Gospel of ANTI and particular sin.

Like Paul I want to preach "the unsearchable riches of Christ as the Gospel".

Originally posted by jaywill
I don't hate them FMF. And how do you know that I may not have been or am not somewhat GAY MYSELF ? You don't know.

And I do not care, jaywill. I am discussing the purported "morality" you espouse.

Originally posted by jaywill
This is the trend in the last few years. I think the numbers of people born with some type of genetic perculiarity is probably not too great. But today you would think that millions claim that they were born to be gay.

But why are you smearing them all as having been "driven in homosexuality into a kind of greediness in lust which causes them to go against their nature"?

Does it ever occur to you that homosexuals may have been more reluctant to come out in the past and are more able to do so nowadays?

Originally posted by jaywill
I don't want to FOCUS longer on a particular sin.

The thread topic is "Homosexuals in heaven?"

Originally posted by FMF
And I do not care, jaywill. I am discussing the purported "morality" you espouse.

This is a good place then for us to end our exchange of ideas.

You don't care about the Gospel or the spirit of the gospel.
I am not waiting for your approval in the way I follow Jesus.

Originally posted by jaywill
This is a good place then for us to end our exchange of ideas.

You don't care about the Gospel or the spirit of the gospel.
I am not waiting for your approval in the way I follow Jesus.

The purported "morality" you espouse is not succeeding in turning me against homosexuals. All I am getting from you is that it is one of the rules of your religion. As I said earlier (and which you of course just ignored) what I would be interested in is a stance on homosexuality with genuine objective moral substance that people [who don't happen to subscribe to the book you happen to subscribe to] could weigh up and perhaps adopt because of the inherent interpersonal common sense or common good or virtue or generosity of the human spirit contained in it.

Originally posted by FMF
The thread topic is "Homosexuals in heaven?"

I am perfectly aware of the topic title.

What I talked about was more biblical - inheriting the kingdom of God.

No. just because someone dumbs down the Gospel doesn't mean that I have to humor them. I can speak as the Bible speaks.

And "going to" a place, any place, even HEAVEN, is of no use if we are not transformed by the sanctifiying Spirit of Christ.

Originally posted by FMF
But why are you smearing them all as having been "driven in homosexuality into a kind of greediness in lust which causes them to go against their nature"?

Does it ever occur to you that homosexuals may have been more reluctant to come out in the past and are more able to do so nowadays?

Here's where you are coming from -

Subtract God, subtract the word of God, subtract Jesus Christ, subtract the salvation of Christ. Now what is wrong with homosexuality??

Without God, without the word of God .. nothing is really wrong with anything.

But, we are NOT without God. And we are Not without His word, His Son, His cross and resurrection, and His plan of salvation.

Maybe you assume that these are unrealities. I don't know what you are. You seem not to want to make very obvious to this forum what you are. You like to pepper some of us with hard questions.

I don't know if you are Agnostic or "spiritual" without religion or "spiritual" minus God or what.

But what I have written is based on God being real. Minus God, nothing matters. Do whatever you wish for tomorrow we die and rot, never to be concerned about any of it again.

Originally posted by jaywill
Without God, without the word of God .. nothing is really wrong with anything.

This is a peculiar point of view to my way of thinking. How brittle and arbitrary that your sense of right and wrong for yourself, and for others, is merely based on words in a book. Well, I am able to behave in a morally correct way without what you seem to need . If it is the only thing - in your mind - that keeps you from harming people, deceiving them or coercing them, or generally being unable to discern between right and wrong, then good for you. And lucky for us, I suppose.