Homosexuals in heaven?

Originally posted by FMF
This is a peculiar point of view to my way of thinking. How brittle and arbitrary that your sense of right and wrong for yourself, and for others, is merely based on words in a book. Well, I am able to behave in a morally correct way without what you seem to need [bearing in mind that I think the proscription of homosexuality is religionist hokum]. If it is the ...[text shortened]... being unable to discern between right and wrong, then good for you. And lucky for us, I suppose.

This is a peculiar point of view to my way of thinking.

Your view is too constricting to me. I prefer the freedom of their being a speaking God as the Bible reveals.

Your philosophy, I find, cuts off my full humanity. But I wholly fit into Christ with no part of my humanity left dangling or hanging in limbo.

Far from brittle, I find Christ more large and accomodating then the humanism you espouse.

Originally posted by jaywill
I don't know what you are. You seem not to want to make very obvious to this forum what you are.

I am not an ideologue, if that's what you mean.

Originally posted by FMF
I am not an ideologue, if that's what you mean.

That may be a nice way of saying you are just lost and don't know what to believe.

Originally posted by jaywill
That may be a nice way of saying you are just lost and don't know what to believe.

FMF: "I am not an ideologue, if that's what you mean."

jaywill: "That may be a nice way of saying you are just lost and don't know what to believe."

LOL! Great moment #42 in the Spirituality Forum.

Originally posted by jaywill
Far from brittle, I find Christ more large and accomodating then the humanism you espouse.

I don't sense much that could be described as "large and accommodating" in what you espouse, as you know. It is brittle and doctrinaire. It has such a sheer weight of affected 'certainty' that I feel that it is something manufactured that simulates self-assurance and fills a vacuum that I don't reckon I have. I walked away from your ideology some years ago and realized what a load of numbing vacuum-filler it had been in many ways.

Originally posted by JS357
A classic "Slippery Slope" argument. If we let A happen, what is to keep B and C and the dreaded D from happening?

We are, jaywill, we are.

You may have missed when I wrote that even if I was wrong about the trend, it is still right to believe into Christ.

Let us say that the next ten or twenty years show great good will and prosperity - an enlargement of humanitarian works, empathy, great advances in science of the soul and the mind with healings of various types.

I am not anti that at all. I do not want to see things get worse by any means. All these things effect my life here as well.

Say there is no slope to slip down. It is still the best life I could have to believe in the Son of God and proclaim His gospel.

As it stands, I am not ashamed of the Bible words on sexuality. I simply have nothing I feel needs apology from me concerning what is written there.

Originally posted by FMF
I don't sense much that could be described as "large and accommodating" in what you espouse, as you know. It is brittle and doctrinaire. It has such a sheer weight of affected 'certainty' that I feel that it is something manufactured that simulates self-assurance and fills a vacuum that I don't reckon I have. I walked away from your ideology some years ago and realized what a load of numbing vacuum-filler it had been in many ways.

I don't sense much that could be described as "large and accommodating"

No you do not. That is because you simply do not grasp that the bottom line here is that Jesus Himself is alive and availiable. Christ is a living Person.

Our efforts, as good evangelists, is ever to lead men to the Person of Jesus. This is the good news. Jesus the Person is alive, available, knowable.

Who could be more loving and understanding than Jesus the Friend of sinners ? No one could.

We do have problems. This does not mean that we do not have problems with sin and sinning and transgressions, errors, mistakes, deceptions, etc. But the Person, the living Person is available to us.

The more you criticize the systematic "system" the more I will emphasize that Jesus Christ is risen and is the avaliable and living Person - the real focus of the Gospel.

Originally posted by jaywill

I don't sense much that could be described as "large and accommodating"

No you do not. That is because you simply do not grasp that the bottom line here is that [b]Jesus Himself is alive and availiable. Christ is a living Person.

Our efforts, as good evangelists, is ever to lead men to the Person of Jesus. This is the ...[text shortened]... esus Christ is risen and is the avaliable and living Person - the real focus of the Gospel.[/b]

Your guy is not available to Muslims. If they try to convert to christianity, they stand a good chance of being killed for apostasy. Also, what about tribes deep in the Amazon, for instance, who never heard of JC and the boys and never will? They all go to hell because of deficiencies in your god, refusing to let them in on the secret?

Originally posted by jaywill
You may have missed when I wrote that even if I was wrong about the trend, it is still right to believe into Christ.

Let us say that the next ten or twenty years show great good will and prosperity - an enlargement of humanitarian works, empathy, great advances in science of the soul and the mind with healings of various types.

I am not anti that at ...[text shortened]... sexuality. I simply have nothing I feel needs apology from me concerning what is written there.

I was pointing out the fact that it was a slippery slope argument, which is inherently weak in argument-ville. It cannot be the case that homosexual activity is wrong only because accepting it indicates that we are willing or required of likely to accept thievery or those other things. There would have to be another reason, and if we have that reason, we don't need a reason like the slippery slope.

Your argument, based on other things you have said, seems to be that it is wrong because God says it is wrong. How then can it also be wrong for another reason. If it is wrong because God says it is wrong, no other reason is needed.

I know you are not interested in arguing the specific point any more. I'm not either. I am interested in what makes an act wrong generally and whether theism has anything to add to philosophical discussions on that question. But AFAIAC, we can take that up another time.

Originally posted by JS357
I was pointing out the fact that it was a slippery slope argument, which is inherently weak in argument-ville. It cannot be the case that homosexual activity is wrong only because accepting it indicates that we are willing or required of likely to accept thievery or those other things. There would have to be another reason, and if we have that reason, we don't d to philosophical discussions on that question. But AFAIAC, we can take that up another time.

I think you can get a good understand of how different Christians groups deal with homosexuality from the following websites:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_homosexuality

A former homosexual becomes a Christian:
http://www.christianityandhomosexuality.com/

The following website presents some liberal interpretations about homosexuals in the Holy Bible:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm

Originally posted by sonhouse
Your guy is not available to Muslims. If they try to convert to christianity, they stand a good chance of being killed for apostasy. Also, what about tribes deep in the Amazon, for instance, who never heard of JC and the boys and never will? They all go to hell because of deficiencies in your god, refusing to let them in on the secret?

Your guy is not available to Muslims.

Of course Christ is available to everyone.

Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

If they try to convert to christianity, they stand a good chance of being killed for apostasy. Also, what about tribes deep in the Amazon, for instance, who never heard of JC and the boys and never will?

That is true. But many of the conversions I have heard of Moslems to Jesus Christ, it seems that God has given them extra accompanying assurance.

I have an Iranian friend whose testimony of coming to Christ was rather dramatic. Often they come to the Lord Jesus in a miraculous manner perhaps to accompany their particularly difficult circumstances.


God knows what He is doing. And your criticism of Him are foolhearty and meaningless.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I think you can get a good understand of how different Christians groups deal with homosexuality from the following websites:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_homosexuality

A former homosexual becomes a Christian:
http://www.christianityandhomosexuality.com/

The following website presents some liberal interpretations about homosexuals in the Holy Bible:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm

The first link start out "Christian denominations hold a variety of views on the issues of sexual orientation and homosexuality, ranging from outright condemnation to complete acceptance."

The second link says "Jesus cast demons out of me, including a homosexual demon."

The conclusion link at the third link says :Various Christian groups interpret Bible passages in totally different ways, and reach mutually exclusive conclusions:" and then it outlines them.

So does the Christian view range from demonization to acceptance of homosexual acts?

Edit: Because I am looking for the theistic moral basis for Christian views on what is right and wrong, what is the basis for these attitudes?

Originally posted by jaywill
By the way, maybe someone noticed that in the Old Testament [b]David was greatly loved by Jonathan. And not a few people have pointed out that this man on man deep love possibly suggests, at least, Jonathan's homosexuality.

I think they have a reasonably strong case, as I read the story of David and Jonathan.

I would hasten to add that ...[text shortened]... andidly in a very matter of fact way - Jonathan loved David as he loved his own soul.[/b]

The bible would've been a damn sight longer if it mentioned every time the characters in it had sex. 🙂

Originally posted by jaywill

God knows what He is doing. And your criticism of Him are foolhearty and meaningless.

does he know what he's doing when christians convert to islam or another faith?

Originally posted by FMF
Really?

you are discussing homosexuality with a man who believes god will throw men in hell for not being manly enough. such statements from him should come as no surprise.