"How can a God of love send anybody to Hell?"

Originally posted by KellyJay
We are more than flesh and bones and I think you rate the devil and
his angels to high compared to us, we are made in the image of the
Lord God of Heaven and Earth. I'm not sure why you'd think we are less
than when it comes to our being! I get that Satan and his angelic
followers are not flesh and blood, but those humans that belong to his
rebellion c ...[text shortened]... nly do have flesh and blood and are human.

Again purgatory, if you believe in it, why?
Kelly

I did not say I believe in purgatory. I reminded you that the concept is biblical and not something to ignore like you are doing.

None of this kind of discussion is of value for ones salvation. However it does bring out the twisted thinking of some Christians .. so it is just interesting to me and not of real value.

Originally posted by divegeester

It is what will be happening according to several posters here who cite scriptures in revelation as proof. I only started using it in my counter argument once it was used as evidence of an eternal hell. I even challenged Kelly on it and he responded along the lines of "god will witness the eternal torment but I'm not sure if we (Christians in heaven) will.

(My reply here and not necessarily Kelly's)

1.) The believers will not be in heaven forever. (Unless you count "a new heaven and a new earth" as "Heaven" ). I do not.

2.) According to Isaiah 66:23,24 I expect that God's redeemed will witness His justice being carried out.

"And from new moon to new moon and from Sabbath to Sabbath all flesh will come to bow down before Me, says Jehovah.

Then they will go forth and look on the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; For their worm will not die. Nor will their fire be quenched;

And they will be an abhorrence to all flesh. " (Isa. 66:23,24)

These words were referred to by Jesus Christ when He spoke of God's judgment (Mark 9:48; Matt. 3:12; Luke 16:24)

Once again, the Person you have to hold mainly responsible for the Christian understanding of a fiery everlasting punishment is the Son of God - Jesus Christ.

Yes, I'll examine my belief.
How about you examine your cynicism?

Originally posted by Rajk999
I did not say I believe in purgatory. I reminded you that the concept is biblical and not something to ignore like you are doing.

None of this kind of discussion is of value for ones salvation. However it does bring out the twisted thinking of some Christians .. so it is just interesting to me and not of real value.

I ignored it, because I do not believe in it. Why bash something that isn't
real? I wasn't sure you believed in it or not, you believing in something
I'd take seriously which was why I was asking.

I agree that it does not add to one's salvation, it like a few other topics
we can beat till we are dead in the head, but reality will end up showing
us all who is right. It is one of those topics I'd prefer to be wrong on, but
do not think I am.
Kelly

Originally posted by sonship
Yes, I'll examine my belief.
How about you examine your cynicism?

Agreed.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I ignored it, because I do not believe in it. Why bash something that isn't
real? I wasn't sure you believed in it or not, you believing in something
I'd take seriously which was why I was asking.

I agree that it does not add to one's salvation, it like a few other topics
we can beat till we are dead in the head, but reality will end up showing
us al ...[text shortened]... ho is right. It is one of those topics I'd prefer to be wrong on, but
do not think I am.
Kelly

Well good. Although you are on the side of eternal torment, you are not making really stupid points to support it. Sonship is doing exactly that. If this is not an important topic why have your doctrine set in stone ?

Originally posted by divegeester
Agreed.

Good enough.

I do not LIKE the revelation of eternal punishment.
I tried to listen to other arguments and know them far better than you probably expect.

My conscience never allows me to adopt them wholesale.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Well good. Although you are on the side of eternal torment, you are not making really stupid points to support it. Sonship is doing exactly that. If this is not an important topic why have your doctrine set in stone ?

I believe it! My liking something does not touch if it is real or not. As I
pointed out to someone else, I try not to judge the Word of God, the
Word of God judges me. If I read it and I get that the punishment is
going to be on going forever, than just because it goes against my warm
and fuzzy feelings I do not get to say it isn't real.
Kelly

Originally posted by sonship

These words were referred to by Jesus Christ when He spoke of God's judgment (Mark 9:48; Matt. 3:12; Luke 16:24) .

Matthew 3:12 is the speaking of John the Baptist.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

Do you think that those listening to Jesus speak of the wicked burning in gehenna thought he meant they would burn forever?

Yes. You see Jesus included a quotation from Isaiah 66:23,24 about the spectacle of the rebels being punished endlessly.

Mark 9:47 - And if your eye stumbles you, cast it out; it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into Gehenna,

Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched."

John the Baptist had already spoken of "unquenchable fire" as a punishment (Matt. 3:12)

Of course not, because they knew that the garbage they took to the city dump did not continue to exist in the fire without being consumed. Rather, it burned up, and was gone.

But the thrust of the teaching was that men should fear God precisely because His punishment can reach farther than the termination of physical life, which of course men can inflict.

"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both the soul and body in Gehenna." (Matt. 10:28)

Why should men fear God more than men?
It is because the suffering He can inflict can go beyond what men can inflict.

The words " ... rather fear Him" do not make sense unless God's authority goes beyond man's authority in the realm of causing suffering.

The words " ... rather fear Him" do not make sense unless God's power reaches further than human power, in this case negatively, in the realm of causing suffering.

Jesus used the word gehenna to illustrate that the wicked were like the garbage, refuse worthy only of destruction. The only reason the fire continued to burn was because the whole city kept throwing their garbage there. Likewise, when it has done its job, the lake of fire will be no more.

If this is the understanding then there is no reason to regard a judging God with any more dread then a group of punishing men. If the result of men tossing you into Gehenna is exactly the same as God tossing you into Gehenna, then there is no reason to regard the latter more seriously.

The teaching gives reason for the greater caution of being on God's disposal list more than man's.

"And I say to you My friends, Do not fear those who kill the body AND AFTERWARDS HAVE NOTHING MORE THEY CAN DO.

But I will show you whom you should fear; fear Him who, AFTER KILLING, HAS AUTHORITY TO CAST INTO GEHENNA; yes, I tell you, fear this One." (Luke 12:4,5)

In comparison to man, God should be more seriously regarded because of His greater authority. The lessons makes no sense if the result of being disposed of is exactly the same whether from men or from God.

If Revelation 20:10 is coming to your mind as an apparent contradiction to what you have read thus far, that’s great—it should. It speaks of the Devil and a couple of his henchman being thrown in the lake of fire and being “tormented day and night forever and ever.” However, the Bible was not written in English, and when we dig a bit deeper, we see that “forever and ever” in the Greek is more accurately “for ages unto ages.”

If it is temporary in regards to the Devil being punished then it should also be temporary in regards to God reigning.

" ... the Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever." (Rev. 11:15)

If you argue that "forever and ever" is a temporary time in regards to the Devil's punishment why do you not argue for a temporary time in regards to the kingdom of God and His Christ?

In keeping with God’s decree in Genesis 3:15 that Jesus would eventually “crush the head” of the Devil (that is, destroy him), Ezekiel 28:18 declares that the Devil will be “brought to ashes.” Apparently, as a fitting recompense for his monstrous evil, this will take a long time.

I think that that is a false dichotomy.
Genesis 3:15 and Ezekiel 28:18 hardly insist that Revelation 20:10 cannot also be fulfilled by God.

For eternity he'll remember all that he through away to no avail.
And he is not to be pitied.
You pity Satan and he'll use it to ruin you.

His hatred of God is fixed forever.
If the creatures that followed him, whether angels, or demons, or humans share his destiny yet to some lesser degree, it is logical to me that that would be none of our business.

We are to be reconciled to God - period.
We are to be brought into His administration - period.
We are to be saved from rebellion against God - period.

The more I consider this the more I could understand that a state that God wants man to avoid altogether, He would describe in its worst possible terms.

We need to be SAVED from not being reconciled to God.

Originally posted by sonship

Do you think that those listening to Jesus speak of the wicked burning in gehenna thought he meant they would burn forever?

Yes. You see Jesus included a quotation from [b]Isaiah 66:23,24 about the spectacle of the rebels being punished endlessly.

Mark 9:47 - And if your eye stumbles you, cast it out; it is better for you to e ...[text shortened]... describe in its worst possible terms.

We need to be SAVED from not being reconciled to God.

I'm going to be backing gradually out of these current controversies as I feel I've said (several times) what I wanted to say and made the points I wanted to make.

However I will also comment that this doctrine being as extreme as it is, is not well supported (if at all in its purest form) in scripture. Considering that...and that it presents an abhorrent view of the living God who is wanting to attract people to christ, I think this is a barrier to the gospel.

I've cast my mind back to before I was a Christian and fear had absolutely nothing to do with my coming to Christ. Had I had known that Christians believed this I probably would have walked away. I find it that disgusting/repellant.

Originally posted by divegeester
I'm going to be backing gradually out of these current controversies as I feel I've said (several times) what I wanted to say and made the points I wanted to make.

However I will also comment that this doctrine being as extreme as it is, is not well supported (if at all in its purest form) in scripture. Considering that...and that it presents an abhor ...[text shortened]... Christians believed this I probably would have walked away. I find it that disgusting/repellant.

Others believe it is evidence of a God of justice that the wicked should be punished for their evil deeds and not get away with the evil by just simple death and annihilation.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Others believe it is evidence of a God of justice that the wicked should be punished for their evil deeds and not get away with the evil by just simple death and annihilation.

A man living the jungle who knows nothing of Christ is as wicked as the Christian who goes berserk and machineguns everyone in a kindergarten?

Originally posted by Rajk999
A man living the jungle who knows nothing of Christ is as wicked as the Christian who goes berserk and machineguns everyone in a kindergarten?

The Son of God will judge that, not me.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The Son of God will judge that, not me.

Did you not already say they will be tormented for eternity|?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Did you not already say they will be tormented for eternity|?

A simple retort, but completely spot on.