03 Aug 14
2 edits
Originally posted by SuzianneIt is what will be happening according to several posters here who cite scriptures in revelation as proof. I only started using it in my counter argument once it was used as evidence of an eternal hell. I even challenged Kelly on it and he responded along the lines of "god will witness the eternal torment but I'm not sure if we (Christians in heaven) will.
What is this fascination with you about God "watching"?
I just don't get your morbid fascination with God "watching".
However you will notice in these last couple of pages Kelly has (finally) remembered the parable of Lazarus the rich and the beggar, where Lazarus finds himself in hell and pleads to [note] Abraham for relief. Not god, Abraham. So if we are to take this account literally (which Kelly in his post states he does), we can see that on the one hand Kelly believes in eternal burning in hell based on various scriptures which he takes literally, but clearly does not take them seriously enough to examine his entire belief structure on this horrendous doctrine - because as Abraham is said to be watching, then we (you, 'cos I will not be) will all be watching it too.
Examine your beliefs Christians; if you believe the horrendous thing then be aware that you will be witnessing it too.
Nice huh.
03 Aug 14
Originally posted by KellyJayI refer you to the post above where I cover this in my reply to Suzianne
I'd also point you to another scripture that has Jesus talking about
two people who died, one he actually names. Because he names him this
leads me to believe it is a true story about these two men, others may
disagree. I'd point out to you a couple of things, first off these two guys
are dead, yet suffering is taking place, conversations are taking pla ...[text shortened]... not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”
03 Aug 14
Originally posted by KellyJayInteresting that even though you take this literally that you have only now after several weeks of debate, decided to cite it.
I've given other scriptures to speak to that, this one lets us know that
when we die, there is more going on than us just leaving this place. If as
you correctly said, if this story can be taken literally, which I believe it
should be for the reasons I've stated.
Kelly
Have had you memory jogged by a friend?
03 Aug 14
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayThe fire is everlasting and the punishment of 2nd death is an everlasting punishment of everlasting death. No reprieve. Dead. Gone. Deceased. An ex human gone forever. Death...and so NOT life. And therefore not eternal life in an incinerator.
This is a repeat post, it does talk about eternal torment.
" I think Jesus is very clear on how long punishment is going to last.
Kelly
Matthew 25:
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was th ...[text shortened]... .’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”"
03 Aug 14
Originally posted by Rajk999Well put. Torment implies a tormented person be alive. Punishment can be instant and permanent, I.e death. Permanent death.
The punishment of the Devil and his angels is not the same as for ordinary people.
Christ used the term everlasting punishment so I will use the same term. I would not remove punishment and insert torment, especially as the Bible says these wicked people would be destroyed.
03 Aug 14
Originally posted by divegeesterIf you have issues with those things I say, just address me! Gheesh,
It is what will be happening according to several posters here who cite scriptures in revelation as proof. I only started using it in my counter argument once it was used as evidence of an eternal hell. I even challenged Kelly on it and he responded along the lines of "god will witness the eternal torment but I'm not sure if we (Christians in heaven) wil ...[text shortened]... you believe the horrendous thing then be aware that you will be witnessing it too.
Nice huh.
it isn't life or death here, we are simply stating views! I hope you are
right, but I do not think you are.
The story of Lazarus isn't about the end time judgement but where these
two guys ended up after they died. There is a matter of life playing out
before we all stand before God and given an account for our lives.
In the story as you correctly point out the rich man speaks to Abraham
who was there to talk to hoping for a little help. None of this goes to what
is coming up when we all stand before God!
It does go to what you were saying when you are dead your dead.
When you are dead you just don't vanish from existence. I'm not sure
where you are getting this we will witness it too, maybe we will the end
of evil will something of an event as all of it gets thrown in the lake of
fire.
Kelly
03 Aug 14
Originally posted by sonshipQuite disingenuous of you.
If eternal punishment MEANS temporary punishment, then [b]"eternal life" correspondingly should mean temporary life.
No one has said "temporary" punishment have they?
Why do you feel the need to adhere to this horrendous belief by saying words and meaning that people have not used?
03 Aug 14
Originally posted by divegeesterThere are several translations out there I could have used Wycliffe Bible
Well put. Torment implies a tormented person be alive. Punishment can be instant and permanent, I.e death. Permanent death.
(WYC)! Bottom line, we will not know who is right till it happens, then all
the lines will be drawn, all the choices made, and some will either go
away, or wish they could.
It actually says:
Matthew 25:
45 Then he shall answer to them, and say [saying], Truly I say to you, as long as ye did not to one of these least, neither ye did to me [as long as ye did not to one of these least, ye did not to me].
46 And these shall go into everlasting torment; but the just men shall go into everlasting life.
03 Aug 14
Originally posted by KellyJayDo you think I'm either ignoring you, being rude to you or scared of you? Or is it perhaps you are trying to make a childish point and choosing to ignore my post above where I did reply to you and to save writing it out again I referred to the text in post immediately above.
If you have issues with those things I say, just address me!
03 Aug 14
2 edits
Originally posted by KellyJayKelly, I'm sorry you are either lying (which I doubt), don't know your bible well enough (which I suspect) and can't remember what you read or posted in the last week (which is evident).
i'm not sure where you are getting this we will witness it too, maybe we will the end of evil will something of an event as all of it gets thrown in the lake of
fire.
There are several references made by other posters including yourself I think, where the scripture in revelation is cited that says god and his angles will be witnessing the burning and torment of the devil and his angels. You and I exchanged on this as I stated above in my really to Susianne.
I don't mind you disagreeing with me, but you need to make sense.
03 Aug 14
1 edit
Originally posted by divegeester
It is what will be happening according to several posters here who cite scriptures in revelation as proof. I only started using it in my counter argument once it was used as evidence of an eternal hell. I even challenged Kelly on it and he responded along the lines of "god will witness the eternal torment but I'm not sure if we (Christians in heaven) wil ...[text shortened]... you believe the horrendous thing then be aware that you will be witnessing it too.
Nice huh.
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” Then He said to me, “ It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
(Revelation 21:1-8 NASB)
03 Aug 14
Originally posted by RJHinds[/b]On the good advice of twhitehead, I shall not be reading your posts for period while my sanity recovers.Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and H ...[text shortened]... ith fire and [e]brimstone, which is the second death.”
(Revelation 21:1-8 NASB)
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
03 Aug 14
Originally posted by Kevin Lee PoracanI think this is better over on the thread about knowing our human spirit perhaps?
Abraham “…And there he built an altar to Jehovah and called upon the name of Jehovah” (Gen. 12:8).
Isaac “And he built an altar there and called upon the name of Jehovah…”(Gen. 26:25).
Samson “And Samson called on Jehovah and said, O Lord Jehovah…”(Judges 16:28).
Samuel “And Samuel called to Jehovah…” (1 Sam. 12:18).
David “I call upon Je ...[text shortened]... of the peoples into a pure
language that they may call upon the name of Jehovah” (Zeph. 3:9).
Then again it is good for this thread too.
Thanks KLP.
03 Aug 14
Originally posted by KellyJaySeveral side by side translations are best. But it is not wise to ignore the books of the Septuagint if you are interested in fuller understanding.
So what translation do you accept? I tend to lean toward the NIV, but
when studying scripture I'll look at several when I'm studing a passage.
Kelly