"How can a God of love send anybody to Hell?"

Originally posted by divegeester

However I will also comment that this doctrine being as extreme as it is, is not well supported (if at all in its purest form) in scripture.

I do not know what you mean by "this doctrine ... in its purest form".

There may be things I heard that are not well supported by Scripture.
I read tracts about Hell which I thought were largely human imagination.

I recall one I read about an atheist whose child was sick and the child described slipping into hell from the toes up. And the atheist went mad. I did not believe the tract and thought it was not authentic.

I can think of some other presentations which I thought were 95% human imagination, near death experiences, "Been to Hell" stupid testimonials, etc. etc.

Taking all those, what I would call bogus perversions, putting them aside, I still have passages in the Bible teaching of eternal punishment.

Now I don't know what you mean by "this doctrine ... in its purest form". All I pay attention to is what is stated in the Scriptures. And throwing out the baby with the bath water is not something I want to do.

But of late some notable evangelicals have distanced themselves from the teaching of eternal punishment. I have a whole book called "Hell Under Fire" (multiple authors of essays) which chronicles the departure from a teaching of eternal punishment by some evangelical Christians.

I have two books which have helped me.

"The Last Assize" by G.H. Lang

"Eternal Suffering of the Wicked and Hades" by Robert Govett

I consider both of these books to take on Universalist and Annhilationist objections about eternal punishment in the most thorough and scholarly fashion.

You probably are not interested in them. But they can be obtained from

Schoettle Publishing CO., INC which has a presence on the Internet.

Considering that...and that it presents an abhorrent view of the living God who is wanting to attract people to christ, I think this is a barrier to the gospel.

I've cast my mind back to before I was a Christian and fear had absolutely nothing to do with my coming to Christ. Had I had known that Christians believed this I probably would have walked away. I find it that disgusting/repellant.

I perfectly respect that some people come to love the Lord minus a presentation of the prospect of eternal judgement. Afterall, it is not always mentioned in the nine classic cases of Jesus preaching the Gospel to sinners in the Gospel of John.

I have a book of Volume Two of a two volume set of outlines and notes for presentations of the New Testament Gospel. [EDITED] One hundred and forty two outlines in Volume 2. Needless to say, some of them are very impressive and make no mention of eternal damnation.

At the same time, the teaching is, I am persuaded, in the Gospels also. And some have been saved through such a presentation.

The Lord Jesus warned us about being ashamed of Him and His words. Since such a matter was spoken by Christ, I feel that I do not want to be ashamed of the proper following of His example in the matter.

"For whoever is ashamed of Me and of My words, of this one will the Son of Man be ashamed when He comes in His glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels." (Luke 9:26)

I look to the Lord's mercy, that I would not be ashamed of the words of Jesus, the way Jesus spoke them. I don't trust myself in myself that I can be faithful.

There is only one Person who is absolute for all the will of God - Jesus Christ. I look to be in Him and thoroughly be identified in Him, laying my hands, so to speak, in consecration upon Him.

What I like or dislike is not to be trusted over the mind of God.

Originally posted by sonship
erased.

Erased?

Can a sung song be erased from eternity?

If your music floats in heaven for all eternity, what then of the singer?

Originally posted by Pudgenik
Erased?

Can a sung song be erased from eternity?

If your music floats in heaven for all eternity, what then of the singer?

Not sure what you are asking.

When I write something like "erased" after I post some comments I mean I erased what I wrote.

Can a sung song be erased from eternity?

If your music floats in heaven for all eternity, what then of the singer?

When I write "erased" on some stuff I previously wrote I make absolutely no garuantee of its effects in eternity. It is ONLY erased in terms of the mechanics of the Discussion Forum.

I am not trying to be tongue in cheek at all here. But songs, artworks, great liturature, grand works of men of all kinds will be faded from memory one day. They will be erased.

"Only one life. Soon will pass. Only what's done for Christ will last."

Some songs will be no more.
Some great music will be no more, along with other works of man's artistic imagination. God will decide this, not you or I.

Its not too bad though. God has realms of beauty that will occupy His beloved for endless ages in eternity. We who are saved will not be bored.

I was struck by Isaiah's prophecy in my early spiritual life:

Enter into the rock, and hide in the dust,
From the dread of Jehovah, and from the splendor of His majesty.

Man's haughty look will be abased, and the loftiness of men will be humbled; But Jehovah alone will be exalted in that day.

For Jehovah of hosts will have a day
Over everything proud and lofty,
And over everything lofty and lifted up,
And over all the cedars of Lebanon,
Which are lofty and lifted up,

And over all the lofty mountains,
And over all the hills that are lifted up;

Over every high tower,
And over every fortified wall;
Over the ships of Tarshish,
And over all their pleasant artifacts.

And the haughtiness of the ordinary man will be humbled,
And the loftiness of the men of distinction will be abased;
But Jehovah alone will be exalted in that day." (See Isaiah 2:10-22)

The Lord alone will be exalted in that day.
All our idols will become humbled in the dust.

So while I enjoy man's art, including my own, I do not become too attached to it.

Yes, millions of dead people right now can tell you there's definitely a Hell.

Originally posted by joya1999
Yes, millions of dead people right now can tell you there's definitely a Hell.

No they can't... Their teethReveal Hidden Contentare gnashing too much to speak 😵

Originally posted by joya1999
Yes, millions of dead people right now can tell you there's definitely a Hell.

You don't need a sock puppet to bump a thread 🙂

http://carm.org/loving-god-would-never-send-anyone-hell

Originally posted by Agerg
No they can't... Their teeth[hidden]what good is a soul without teeth!?[/hidden]are gnashing too much to speak 😵

Agerg, I'd be interested in your points of view on the concept of the human "soul" and on the possibility of eternity.

Originally posted by sonship

When I write "erased" on some stuff I previously wrote I make absolutely no garuantee of its effects in eternity. It is ONLY erased in terms of the mechanics of the Discussion.

I've just noticed this gem; you really believe that you are speaking some sort of eternal words don't you.

Originally posted by joya1999
Yes, millions of dead people right now can tell you there's definitely a Hell.

How can these "millions of dead people" tell me?

Originally posted by sonship

However I will also comment that this doctrine being as extreme as it is, is not well supported (if at all in its purest form) in scripture.

I do not know what you mean by "this doctrine ... in its purest form".

There may be things I heard that are not well supported by Scripture.
I read tracts about Hell which I thought were largely ...[text shortened]... in consecration upon Him.

What I like or dislike is not to be trusted over the mind of God.

I've resisted responding to this post for a while but to be honest your sanctimonious self righteousness is almost stifling, so I have to.

YOU claim that Christ " spoke of" these things. He mentioned it ONCE in what many consider to be a parabolic account.

You go on to talk about "being ashamed" of the words of Christ and of course you are slipping the knife into me because I don't interpret the ONE parabolic account of eternal suffering the way you do.

I am not ashamed of Christ and I'll stand up for my faith to any of the slavering atheists in this forum - so listen to me mister, if you want to believe that the Author of Life has created a place of eternal flesh melting nighmare agony for those vessels not filled, them go right ahead and see where it gets you with this lot, or indeed any unbeliever.

You may well look down your long spiritual nose at my shortcomings, but I would never accuse you of being ashamed of Christ.

Originally posted by divegeester
I've resisted responding to this post for a while but to be honest your sanctimonious self righteousness is almost stifling, so I have to.

YOU claim that Christ " spoke of" these things. He mentioned it ONCE in what many consider to be a parabolic account.

You go on to talk about "being ashamed" of the words of Christ and of course you are slippin ...[text shortened]... long spiritual nose at my shortcomings, but I would never accuse you of being ashamed of Christ.

"I am not ashamed of Christ and I'll stand up for my faith..." dive, in my book the post of the day on this spirituality forum.

Originally posted by divegeester

I've resisted responding to this post for a while but to be honest your sanctimonious self righteousness is almost stifling, so I have to.

YOU claim that Christ " spoke of" these things. He mentioned it ONCE in what many consider to be a parabolic account.

Well, I don't know what is sanctimonious about saying Jesus spoke of these things. And I would not say something as serious as eternal punishment is would be vaguely mentioned only once.

Some do regard Luke 16:19-31 as parabolic. I have considered this but decided that probably this is wrong. In no parable did Jesus ever mention a person's name.

The mention of the name Lazarus I think argues for Luke 16:19-31 being something historically that somehow He knew about. He witnessed it.

Even the Apostle Paul had experiences of things God showed him being carried away into Paradise and caught away to other realms.

"I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body I do not know, or outside the body I do not know; God knows) such a one was caught away to the third heaven.

And I know such a man ... that he was caught away into Paradise and heard unspeakable words, which it is not allowed for a man to speak." (2 Cor. 12:2,3a,4)

Paul was silent about this experience for some 14 years. But if he was caught into realms unknown to witness things how much more the Son of God may have witnessed such scenes.

No parable of Christ has the mention of someone's proper name.

Secondly, if the state of the rich man in that suffering is not representative of reality then Jesus Christ would have been unrighteous to give that teaching as if it were true.

If God cannot and does not have the ability to cause the immaterial part of man to be in the discomfort the teaching describes then Christ was wrong to give us a false impression.

Whether the rich man's punishment there is eternal or not is not explicitly stated. The implication seems more that it is his state from then on.

I am not ashamed of Christ and I'll stand up for my faith to any of the slavering atheists in this forum - so listen to me mister, if you want to believe that the Author of Life has created a place of eternal flesh melting nighmare agony for those vessels not filled, them go right ahead and see where it gets you with this lot, or indeed any unbeliever.

The Author of Life speaks of "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" in Matthew 25:41.

After much serious contemplation and consideration I have decided that that means - "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." I think among many other wonderful things I should include as coming from the hand of God, also something terrible - a place so "prepared" by God, apparently.

Originally posted by sonship
After much serious contemplation and consideration I have decided that that means - [b]"the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." I think among many other wonderful things I should include as coming from the hand of God, also something terrible - a place so "prepared" by God, apparently.[/b]

So do you think someone who does not believe the same things as you is either [1] "The Devil" or [2] "His Angels"?

Originally posted by sonship

I've resisted responding to this post for a while but to be honest your sanctimonious self righteousness is almost stifling, so I have to.

YOU claim that Christ " spoke of" these things. He mentioned it ONCE in what many consider to be a parabolic account.

Well, I don't know what is sanctimonious about saying Jesus spoke of these thi ...[text shortened]... from the hand of God, also something terrible - a place so [b]"prepared" by God, apparently.[/b]

It doesn't say "prepared for human beings" though does it.

Why don't you start another few threads on the "goodness of god" to counterbalanence your defence of the horror of god that you have convinced yourself to believe in.