Originally posted by KellyJayWell that's fine. The 'scripture' in which you place your faith is only 140 yrs old. All previous scripture for the 2000 yrs prior contained the concept of purgatory.
I don't care what the Catholics believe about purgatory, I'm simply going
over what is in scripture. If I understand the concept of purgatory and
I have never studied or care to so I may be wrong, I thought it was
a place to suffer till you were ready for forgiveness. I don't buy into that
at all, if you die in your sins in this life, you are about to face judgment
there isn't a second chance earned through suffering in purgatory.
Kelly
Originally posted by Rajk999You crow that you, above all (most) others, are one who can read and understand.
Therein lies the most basic flaw of your doctrine. You believe that YOU Sonship know who are saints in Christ and who are not.
Saints are determined by Christ and Christ alone. Christ told Paul and the Apostles about their saintly status.
Saints are NOT determined by you.
Saints are NOT determined by some preconceived statement of belief.
Not everyone who say they believe are saints.
Why not allow Christ to decide who are His saints.
Well, read and understand this:
"Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:" -- 1 Corinthians 1:1-2
He even included this quote in the post you replied to. So obviously you can NOT "read and understand".
If you think that your posts here somehow "praise God" as all Christians *should* do, then first you have to stop praising yourself.
Originally posted by KellyJayChrist words : everlasting punishment
This is a repeat post, it does talk about eternal torment.
" I think Jesus is very clear on how long punishment is going to last.
Kelly
Matthew 25:
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was th ...[text shortened]... .’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”"
Your words. : eternal torment.
I think they are not identical in meaning
Originally posted by Rajk999You believe in purgatory? If you do, knowing your love of scripture and
Well that's fine. The 'scripture' in which you place your faith is only 140 yrs old. All previous scripture for the 2000 yrs prior contained the concept of purgatory.
how important it is, would you mind sharing why? As I have told you,
I never studied it, and coming from you I'd like to hear what you have
to say. If you don't want to share, which is of course completely up to
you and you have some place you could point me that reflects your views
you could point me to it, I'd be happy to go there and read it.
Kelly
Originally posted by Rajk999Was the concept of purgatory "contained" in the Sermon on the Mount? You yourself have claimed that that is the ONLY thing you "believe" in.
Well that's fine. The 'scripture' in which you place your faith is only 140 yrs old. All previous scripture for the 2000 yrs prior contained the concept of purgatory.
Originally posted by Rajk999I think if you read what is in store for the devil and his angels you know
Christ words : everlasting punishment
Your words. : eternal torment.
I think they are not identical in meaning
they are in for a world of hurt. I don't see how you think everlasting
punishment does not mean everlasting punishment? If the punishment
were to only last till you, I guess burn up and go away, that is not
punishment that lasts forever, it only lasts as long as you are around to
feel it. So if your punishment is to join those that are about to be thrown
into the lake of fire, personally I think it will be as bad as it can possibly
get, which is exact opposite of those saved by grace and God's mercy.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayThe Greek Septuagint is very similar to the Duay Reims Catholic Bible which is very similar to the KJV 1611. However sometime around the mid 1800s they removed the books they felt were apocryphal and that is the current KJV of today.
Enlightend me 140 years old?
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayThe punishment of the Devil and his angels is not the same as for ordinary people.
I think if you read what is in store for the devil and his angels you know
they are in for a world of hurt. I don't see how you think everlasting
punishment does not mean everlasting punishment? If the punishment
were to only last till you, I guess burn up and go away, that is not
punishment that lasts forever, it only lasts as long as you are around to ...[text shortened]... as it can possibly
get, which is exact opposite of those saved by grace and God's mercy.
Kelly
Christ used the term everlasting punishment so I will use the same term. I would not remove punishment and insert torment, especially as the Bible says these wicked people would be destroyed.
Originally posted by Rajk999I'm not sure why you'd think that, we can be destroyed in this life, that
The punishment of the Devil and his angels is not the same as for ordinary people.
Christ used the term everlasting punishment so I will use the same term. I would not remove punishment and insert torment, especially as the Bible says these wicked people would be destroyed.
does not mean we are gone from all existence, and even if that were
true it does not address purgatory. If they are thrown into the same
place to suffer, why wouldn’t they suffer the same fate?
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayA piece of paper and a piece of steel cast into the same fire will not suffer the same fate. An ordinary human compared with the Devil and his angels are not the same. They are not made with the same flesh and blood like humans. If you read around more from the ancient Jewish literature you would understand the nature of Satan and his followers. They are not human.
I'm not sure why you'd think that, we can be destroyed in this life, that
does not mean we are gone from all existence, and even if that were
true it does not address purgatory. If they are thrown into the same
place to suffer, why wouldn’t they suffer the same fate?
Kelly
Originally posted by Rajk999We are more than flesh and bones and I think you rate the devil and
A piece of paper and a piece of steel cast into the same fire will not suffer the same fate. An ordinary human compared with the Devil and his angels are not the same. They are not made with the same flesh and blood like humans. If you read around more from the ancient Jewish literature you would understand the nature of Satan and his followers. They are not human.
his angels to high compared to us, we are made in the image of the
Lord God of Heaven and Earth. I'm not sure why you'd think we are less
than when it comes to our being! I get that Satan and his angelic
followers are not flesh and blood, but those humans that belong to his
rebellion certainly do have flesh and blood and are human.
Again purgatory, if you believe in it, why?
Kelly
Originally posted by Rajk999So what translation do you accept? I tend to lean toward the NIV, but
The Greek Septuagint is very similar to the Duay Reims Catholic Bible which is very similar to the KJV 1611. However sometime around the mid 1800s they removed the books they felt were apocryphal and that is the current KJV of today.
when studying scripture I'll look at several when I'm studing a passage.
Kelly
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This is the most dreadful subject. And to address it well requires long posts which gives those not agreeing an excuse to be unpersuaded -
"Your post was TOO long. So I remain unconvinced because I didn't read it."
A few observations.
1.) If eternal punishment MEANS temporary punishment, then "eternal life" correspondingly should mean temporary life.
So, annhilationists, what follows after "eternal life" is terminated ?
2.) If it is conceivable the Satan and his angels would be be subject to more suffering than unbelieving human beings, why would God tell us so?
There may be some places in Sing Sing Prison which are not as bad as other places there. The point is that the ENTIRE place should be avoided. And we should not expect God to advertize that there are some less uncomfortable places in a place which He wishes us altogether not to go, PERIOD.
It makes sense that He would describe it in its WORST possible effects, if that were the case.
3.) Why would "eternal sinning" not call for "eternal punishment" ? If beings are frozen in a state of hated rebellion against God, for all we know the malignancy may grow worse and worse when His grace is totally withdrawn.
4.) Concerning the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-30.
I agree that it does not explicitly say that the rich man is there forever. But it should be noted concerning his attitude:
a.) He does not request to be taken out. He only requests some temporary relief.
b.) Because he makes not request to be saved from the place it appears that he understands and accepts his destiny. He only asks for temporary reprieve.
c.) There is nothing much in the story that indicates he wants to be where Lazarus is in Abraham's bosom. Nothing indicates that he wants God now any more than before.
d.) The only relief he conceivably could have is knowing that his brothers may not come to the same place. And all they conceivably can do for him is not join him. That alone would comfort him somewhat.
e.) He still seems unrepentant. Do we ever see him sorry for his atttiude towards the beggar Lazarus? As far as he is concerned Lazarus still is beneath him. "Send Lazarus ...".
f.) If the science and the physics of the scene cause us doubt about its veracity, the word picture of it communicates it to the broadest spectrum of people.
g.) If the picture painted by the words is not true then Jesus Christ would be rather unrighteous to have spoken the story to scare us.
h.) If it is unrighteous for God to punish the lost with torment it should be unrighteous whether it is eternal or not.
Why would tormenting for a temporary season and they obliterating from existence be necessarily more righteous ? If non-existence is punishment then why punish otherwise beforehand ?
i.) If there is a greatest possible goodness there should also be a greatest possible badness with its appropriate recompense.
Abraham “…And there he built an altar to Jehovah and called upon the name of Jehovah” (Gen. 12:8).
Isaac “And he built an altar there and called upon the name of Jehovah…”(Gen. 26:25).
Samson “And Samson called on Jehovah and said, O Lord Jehovah…”(Judges 16:28).
Samuel “And Samuel called to Jehovah…” (1 Sam. 12:18).
David “I call upon Jehovah, who is worthy of praise; and from my enemies I was saved” (2 Sam. 22:4).
“In my distress I called upon Jehovah and called to my God…” (2 Sam. 22:7).
Elijah “Then call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of Jehovah, and the God who answers by fire, He will be God” (1 Kings 18:24).
Jeremiah “I called upon your name, O Jehovah…” (Lam. 3:55).
Joel “And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved” (Joel 2:32). Although many are familiar with Joel’s prophecy regarding the Holy Spirit, not many have paid attention to the fact that receiving the outpoured Holy Spirit requires us to call on the name of the Lord. In this verse God does not pour Himself out apart from the cooperation we render Him by calling on Him. Joel’s prophecy was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost and, in fact, continues to be fulfilled throughout the New Testament age.
Zephaniah “For then I will change the language of the peoples into a pure
language that they may call upon the name of Jehovah” (Zeph. 3:9).