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Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. Standard member dj2becker
    Hoarse whisperer
    29 Sep '17 10:59
    According to Ghost an innocent child dying of cancer is incompatible with the existence of a perfectly loving God, leading to the inescapable conclusion that such a deity does not exist.

    So my first question to Ghost is why is a child dying of cancer incompatible with the existence of a perfectly loving God? Because he says so?
  2. Standard member vivify
    rain
    29 Sep '17 11:51
    If I had the power stop a child from getting cancer but didn't, what would you think of me? That I'm a good loving person?

    Christians give a pass to their god for things they'd normally find evil. A fancy titles such as "Alpha and Omega", and grandiose mythology of "holiness", infallibility, etc., somehow turn his flaws into mystical, magical qualities. Because God is magical, that makes his command to stone gays somehow mysteriously just, rather than cruel.

    Christians are no different from the citizens of North Korea. Because they're constantly told that their leader is great, their leader is wise, their leader is the greatest, their leader never errs...that their leader is basically a god—and that they deserve to die for opposing him—excuses his murderous dictatorship.
  3. Standard member dj2becker
    Hoarse whisperer
    29 Sep '17 11:53
    Originally posted by @vivify
    If I had the power stop a child from getting cancer but didn't, what would you think of me? That I'm a good loving person?

    Christians give a pass to their god for things they'd normally find evil. A fancy titles such as "Alpha and Omega", and grandiose mythology of "holiness", infallibility, etc., somehow turn his flaws into mystical, magical qualitie ...[text shortened]... asically a god—and that they deserve to die for opposing him—excuses his murderous dictatorship.
    So the best you can come up with is also a strawman.
  4. Standard member vivify
    rain
    29 Sep '17 13:09
    Originally posted by @dj2becker
    So the best you can come up with is also a strawman.
    Learn what a strawman argument is before using it to evade a post.
  5. Standard member sonship
    the corrected one.
    29 Sep '17 13:14 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @vivify
    If I had the power stop a child from getting cancer but didn't, what would you think of me? That I'm a good loving person?

    Christians give a pass to their god for things they'd normally find evil. A fancy titles such as "Alpha and Omega", and grandiose mythology of "holiness", infallibility, etc., somehow turn his flaws into mystical, magical qualitie ...[text shortened]... asically a god—and that they deserve to die for opposing him—excuses his murderous dictatorship.
    If I had the power stop a child from getting cancer but didn't, what would you think of me? That I'm a good loving person?


    The argument against God's existence because of the existence of tragedy and misfortune I think is a strong argument. But it is not strong enough to cause me to turn to Atheism. This would primarily be because I read the Holy Bible.

    The oldest book in the Bible [Job], tackles the issue up front and head on - "If God then WHY do bad things happen to good people ? In a sense this is the very first matter addressed in the Bible because humans are legitimately preoccupied with that dilemma.

    "If there is GOD, then we should be only in the situation described by Revelation 21 and 22 - no tears, no death, no sickness, no misfortune, only endless blessing. While it is legitimate for man to ask this, the question is not strong enough to cause some of us to doubt God's existence.

    At least we know that history is HEADED in that direction.
    And God's track record for the fulfillment of His promises is approved by many.
    We know that His salvation is headed in towards that climax in history.

    In the meantime if God is only the God of those who are not sick, then He is not much of a God. If He is only the God of those without cancer but cannot be the God of those who have cancer, then He is not much of a God.

    It is not possible for me to read the Bible and not notice that however low in misfortune a person descends, the arms of God can get beneath that person to uphold them.
  6. Standard member sonship
    the corrected one.
    29 Sep '17 13:15

    Christians give a pass to their god for things they'd normally find evil. A fancy titles such as "Alpha and Omega", and grandiose mythology of "holiness", infallibility, etc., somehow turn his flaws into mystical, magical qualities. Because God is magical, that makes his command to stone gays somehow mysteriously just, rather than cruel.


    I sense that this is kind jumping to another complaint.
    A kind of skeptical carpet bombing.

    I think I deal with the initial complaint. And I acknowledge that after hearing many arguments for atheism, the argument from the case of human misfortune is to me, the strongest.

    It is not so strong as to cause me to embrace Atheism.
    Maybe if I did not read through the Bible, I might be shaken.

    But it its pages I see a God before whose wisdom, righteousness, and love every imaginable obstacle is erected to STOP His will. And He branches over the walls down throughout the ages demonstrating that no opposition, no misfortune, and even no failure of his creature can arrest His will to arrive at Revelation 21 and 22 - no death, no tears, no suffering, but eternal blessing / eternal life.

    "Cancer should have stopped God": maybe a strong argument, I admit.
    But it is not strong enough.

    And the unjust execution of the Son of God should have stopped God. But it didn't. It rather turned the tables and worked all the more for Him to accomplish His eternal purpose.
  7. Standard member sonship
    the corrected one.
    29 Sep '17 13:15 / 1 edit

    Christians are no different from the citizens of North Korea. Because they're constantly told that their leader is great, their leader is wise, their leader is the greatest, their leader never errs...that their leader is basically a god—and that they deserve to die for opposing him—excuses his murderous dictatorship.


    It is a real case of moral/spiritual befuddlement when you're confronted with the accusation that Kim Jong Il and Jesus Christ are the same.

    I wonder what has happened to a person's heart and mind when to them Kim Jong Il and Jesus Christ are about the same.
  8. Standard member Ghost of a Duke
    Zen Master
    29 Sep '17 13:15
    Originally posted by @dj2becker
    According to Ghost an innocent child dying of cancer is incompatible with the existence of a perfectly loving God, leading to the inescapable conclusion that such a deity does not exist.

    So my first question to Ghost is why is a child dying of cancer incompatible with the existence of a perfectly loving God? Because he says so?
    Why would a perfectly loving God, who is also all powerful, allow such a child to suffer?!

    If you can't see the incompatibility then quite frankly you're an idiot. (And to create a new thread to highlight this only compounds the idiocy).

    There are only 3 possible explanations:

    1. God does not exist.
    2. God may be perfectly loving but lacks the ability to help. (Is not all powerful).
    3. God could help (is all powerful) but doesn't care enough to intervene. (is not all loving)

    I go with number 1.
  9. Standard member sonship
    the corrected one.
    29 Sep '17 13:41
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    Why would a perfectly loving God, who is also all powerful, allow such a child to suffer?!

    If you can't see the incompatibility then quite frankly you're an idiot. (And to create a new thread to highlight this only compounds the idiocy).

    There are only 3 possible explanations:

    1. God does not exist.
    2. God may be perfectly loving but lack ...[text shortened]... s all powerful) but doesn't care enough to intervene. (is not all loving)

    I go with number 1.
    Those are not the only possibilities.

    4.) There may be a need deeper than just the physical one to which God is giving attention.
  10. Standard member sonship
    the corrected one.
    29 Sep '17 14:03 / 6 edits
    I would like to introduce you to Ms Fanny Crosby (1820 - 1915).
    Fanny Crosby was a child who suffered from medical failure which cost her her sight for the rest of her life.

    Fanny Crosby, as far as I know, never succumbed to the utter bitterness that many of us would have had at becoming blind because of medical incompetance.

    Fanny Crosby grew up to be a women with a prolific gift for writing touching Christian hymns. I think she who about 9000 of them.

    I dare say that people will remember more the comfort and uplifting spiritual support they received from singing a song by Fanny Crosby then they will remember a thousand sermons from preachers' in pulpits.

    The poor girl gone blind uplifted probably millions of hearts with such hymns as

    'Blessed Assurance (Jesus is Mine)"
    "Pass Me Not, O Gentle Saviour",
    "Jesus Is Tenderly Calling You Home",
    "Praise Him, Praise Him",
    "Rescue the Perishing",
    "To God Be the Glory".


    Lord Jesus, THANKYOU that Sister Fanny Crosby didn't turn to Atheism when she had her childhood misfortune. Lord Thankyou for all the inspiring poetry and hymns penned by this woman whom You upheld in her tragedy. God, I just want to thank You.


    I am so glad Ms Crosby didn't turn out 9000 diatribes about the benefits of atheism.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_Crosby
  11. Standard member vivify
    rain
    29 Sep '17 14:16
    Originally posted by @sonship
    Those are not the only possibilities.

    4.) There may be a need deeper than just the physical one to which God is giving attention.
    A deeper need than saving a suffering child dying from cancer?
  12. Standard member sonship
    the corrected one.
    29 Sep '17 14:30 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @vivify
    A deeper need than saving a suffering child dying from cancer?
    How do you know that that is the only thing a child might be suffering from?
    The pharmaceutical industry loves people like you.
  13. Standard member Ghost of a Duke
    Zen Master
    29 Sep '17 14:39
    Originally posted by @sonship
    I would like to introduce you to Ms Fanny Crosby (1820 - 1915).
    Fanny Crosby was a child who suffered from medical failure which cost her her sight for the rest of her life.

    Fanny Crosby, as far as I know, never succumbed to the utter bitterness that many of us would have had at becoming blind because of medical incompetance.

    Fanny Crosby grew up to ...[text shortened]... out 9000 diatribes about the benefits of atheism.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_Crosby
    What if Ms Fanny Crosby had been diagnosed with cancer as a child, and had died as a child as a result of that cancer. (Thus never having the opportunity to write uplifting Christian hymns).

    Sorry Sonship, but wake up and smell the coffee. Your option 4 is simply woeful. - Again, why would a perfectly loving and omnipotent God allow an innocent child to suffer with cancer? (Something completely out of its control and not of its causing).
  14. Standard member Ghost of a Duke
    Zen Master
    29 Sep '17 14:41
    Originally posted by @sonship
    How do you know that that is the only thing a child might be suffering from?
    The pharmaceutical industry loves people like you.
    You really should give more thought to your replies. When you respond quickly you never come off very well.
  15. Standard member vivify
    rain
    29 Sep '17 14:44
    Originally posted by @sonship
    How do you know that that is the only thing a child might be suffering from?
    The pharmaceutical industry loves people like you.
    This is a profoundly unintelligent comment.