Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe thing I keep going back to is Satan is a man made apparition, nothing more, so why all the debate about a myth? Satan, Maya, Loki, Djinn, whatever, they are all man made like the boogey man. It's not worth a huge debate over.
no one is saying that there is someone called Satan you pure straw merchant selling
strawberries on strawberry Sunday near strawingham, the fact is, that there was
historically a literal equivalent not just a conceptual understanding, so hard for you to
accept, why, i have no idea.
Originally posted by sonhouseirrelevant to the point at hand.
The thing I keep going back to is Satan is a man made apparition, nothing more, so why all the debate about a myth? Satan, Maya, Loki, Djinn, whatever, they are all man made like the boogey man. It's not worth a huge debate over.
Originally posted by sonhouseThe Hindu and Buddhist descriptions of "evil deities" are far more well defined than the one dimensional satan/devil character, who is dreamed up by the bible writers as a counter against JC in some sort if original Hollywood template for action movies to come!
Still, the fact remains all this talk about 'satan' is much ado about nothing since there is no such being, it is all part of the mythology made up by man, christian or otherwise.
Originally posted by karoly aczelwith the glaring omission that the entity was known from the beginning, thousands of
The Hindu and Buddhist descriptions of "evil deities" are far more well defined than the one dimensional satan/devil character, who is dreamed up by the bible writers as a counter against JC in some sort if original Hollywood template for action movies to come!
years prior to Christ's coming.
Originally posted by karoly aczelSatan the Devil is not a character made up by Hollywood. So don't look there to understand Satan.
The Hindu and Buddhist descriptions of "evil deities" are far more well defined than the one dimensional satan/devil character, who is dreamed up by the bible writers as a counter against JC in some sort if original Hollywood template for action movies to come!
Originally posted by sonhouseI think I understand your problem now. You still feel deceived that you you were allowed to think the tooth fairy and Santa Claus were really true. I had some of those same feelings as a child because the biggest part of Christmas to me was Santa Claus and not Jesus the Christ. So I began thinking if Santa Claus was a deception then why not God and Christ. I feel for you for this was also hard for me to deal with and overcome.
Not sure why it would be irrelevant to you but it is like arguing over which one is more real, the tooth fairy or Santa Claus.....
Originally posted by RJHindsYou know, sometimes a rod is just a rod. I had no such problem as a child. I am saying the entire concept of satan and all its variants in all the cultures on earth are just that, man made boogie men to scare little kids and weak thinking adults.
I think I understand your problem now. You still feel deceived that you you were allowed to think the tooth fairy and Santa Claus were really true. I had some of those same feelings as a child because the biggest part of Christmas to me was Santa Claus and not Jesus the Christ. So I began thinking if Santa Claus was a deception then why not God and Christ. I feel for you for this was also hard for me to deal with and overcome.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWhatever. I note with amusement that you have moved from "Buddhists and Muslims as well as Jews also profess belief [in satan]" to "...early Buddhism had both a literal and a conceptual understanding of a satanic agency...". Clearly you're on shaky ground semantically now ( "satanic" ), but hey, on your next shuffle sideways maybe you can come up with something a little sturdier - crikey, at this rate you'll soon be arguing against your own position anyway.
I am not trying to score any points, nor do i have a brand as you wrongly assume, for
one, i did not author the statement that early Buddhism had both a literal and a
conceptual understanding of a satanic agency, now you can either accept the fact that it
did, or you cannot, either way, the fact remains. What I find quite interesting is the
...[text shortened]... it so hard to accept both a literal and
"psychological"interpretation of Mara, I cannot say.
And do you really imagine that any Buddhists feel a need to distance themselves from the historical roots of Buddhism? Seriously? You know what, never mind, you just carry on pretending you know what you're talking about and that everybody else believes you.
Originally posted by sonhouseSorry for my misdiagnosis. You should know better than I as to what your problem might be, since I am not a psychologist.
You know, sometimes a rod is just a rod. I had no such problem as a child. I am saying the entire concept of satan and all its variants in all the cultures on earth are just that, man made boogie men to scare little kids and weak thinking adults.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieyou're the one selling strawberries. i never said there were no equivalents. what i said (and i've had to repeat this many times since you're too much of a dunce to understand it the first time) is that there is no satan as an individual specific person in the old testament. you have not been able to refute this, instead you try to sell strawberries and other nonsense.
no one is saying that there is someone called Satan you pure straw merchant selling
strawberries on strawberry Sunday near strawingham, the fact is, that there was
historically a literal equivalent not just a conceptual understanding, so hard for you to
accept, why, i have no idea.
Originally posted by VoidSpiritI know what you are saying, its just that its jive turkey.
you're the one selling strawberries. i never said there were no equivalents. what i said (and i've had to repeat this many times since you're too much of a dunce to understand it the first time) is that there is no satan as an individual specific person in the old testament. you have not been able to refute this, instead you try to sell strawberries and other nonsense.
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Originally posted by avalanchethecatI can only go from my experience, why you cannot accept the fact that yes indeed,
Whatever. I note with amusement that you have moved from [b]"Buddhists and Muslims as well as Jews also profess belief [in satan]" to "...early Buddhism had both a literal and a conceptual understanding of a satanic agency...". Clearly you're on shaky ground semantically now ( "satanic" ), but hey, on your next shuffle sideways maybe you c on pretending you know what you're talking about and that everybody else believes you.[/b]
historically Buddhists did believe in a literal satanic agency I cannot say and as the
matter was established, its open to interpretation and as was also established not all
Buddhists believe the same thing which means you cannot state with any certainty that
even today belief in a satanic agency is obsolete. Its seems to me cat that you want
your milk and Kiti-cake as well. Perhaps we can also ask, does Buddhism have the
concept of a hell, a place of literal torment?
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Originally posted by RJHindsAs far as I know I have no problem. Like they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so are devils. I see no devils ANYWHERE except those made by man. You see supernatural devils EVERYWHERE and thus go through life fearful in some respect because your religion is the religion of fear and death not joy and life.
Sorry for my misdiagnosis. You should know better than I as to what your problem might be, since I am not a psychologist.
Your religion is all about your fake AFTER life, screw whatever happens to the life we happen to be living in reality. It might be a great sales pitch but snake oil salesmen have been around for thousands of years and your religion is the biggest snake oil ponzi scheme of all time.
I for one, want to be on a planet where your religious snake oil salesmen have zero cred just like they have with me. If humans had had brains 3000 years ago, the snake oil religious salesmen would have had no cred from day one but the weak minded ones reproduce weak minded humans so the scam goes on generation after generation making the total intelligence of the human race less and less each generation in spite of the fact we are getting higher marks on IQ tests.
The ability to resist scam artists is one sign of intelligence and the human race is sorely lacking in that respect.
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieClearly the Hindu concept of 'Mara' can in some respects be considered analogous to the christian 'satan', although I would still argue that the terms 'satan' and 'satanic' are semantically inappropriate in this instance. Further, since, as I previously stated, Buddhism has it's origins within a Hindu society and idealogical framework, I have already made it clear that I accept that 'historically' some Buddhists entertained a concept a christian would consider similar in some ways to what you refer to as 'satanic agency'.
I can only go from my experience, why you cannot accept the fact that yes indeed,
historically Buddhists did believe in a literal satanic agency I cannot say and as the
matter was established, its open to interpretation and as was also established not all
Buddhists believe the same thing which means you cannot state with any certainty that
ev ...[text shortened]... Perhaps we can also ask, does Buddhism have the
concept of a hell, a place of literal torment?
As to hell, well, historically there are the Narakas (again, really a Hindu idea), but one is not 'banished' to such places nor is residence there eternal. Rather, one may spend an incarnation there depending on accumulated karma. All completely irrelevant to secular Buddhism of course. A Zen answer would be that "Heaven and hell aren't places that suddenly appear after death. They exist here and now. Good and evil involve just a single instant of thought, and the gates of heaven and hell are ready to open for you at any time."