Originally posted by jaywillthere is no individual "satan" being in the old testament. "satan" is a generic term meaning "the opposer/the accuser." (similar to prosecutor in modern terminology)
Satan existed in the Hebrew Bible before the Christian Gospel was preached or written.
See the Old Testament books of [b] Job, First Chronicles, Zechariah .
And please don't start in with "Oh, that is the just some friendly Advasary" excuse of skeptics, desparately trying to sever the Old Testament away from the New Testament.[/b]
"satan" only became personified as a single individual in the new testament with the introduction of foreign (roman/helenistic) influences to judeism. this is not an excuse by skeptics, it's fact.
this idea was later picked up by the muslims. it was easy for them, they already had evil djinn in their culture.
Originally posted by robbie carrobiebuddhists believe satan? really?
Buddhists and Muslims as well as Jews also profess belief, making your assertions, as
ludicrous as ever.
islam is an offshoot of christianity
jews don't belive in a sentient/personified satan.
get your facts straight then get back to me.
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Originally posted by VoidSpiritI don't like to try to discuss things with you because when you get yourself into a corner in error it seems your way out is to be insulting and blasphemous.
there is no individual "satan" being in the old testament. "satan" is a generic term meaning "the opposer/the accuser." (similar to prosecutor in modern terminology)
"satan" only became personified as a single individual in the new testament with the introduction of foreign (roman/helenistic) influences to judeism. this is not an excuse by skeptics up by the muslims. it was easy for them, they already had evil djinn in their culture.
there is no individual "satan" being in the old testament. "satan" is a generic term meaning "the opposer/the accuser." (similar to prosecutor in modern terminology)
The oldest book of the Bible treats Satan as an individual being as indicated by the specific reference to him coming also with other spiritual beings -
"Then one day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, Satan ALSO came among them.
And Jehovah said to Satan, Where have you come from ? And Satan answered Jehovah and said, From roving the earth and going about in it.
And Jehovah said to Satan, Have you considered My servant Job ? ... etc." (Job 1:6-8a)
Satam is treated as much as a specific individual being as much as the man Job is treated. He came ALSO among other general spiritual beings and definitely has his individual personality and is treated so by God.
All the things your wrote about the prosecutor are true yet irrelevant to Satan being the same being throughout the entire Bible. There is nothing new in you informing us that he functioned as a prosecutor.
"satan" only became personified as a single individual in the new testament with the introduction of foreign (roman/helenistic) influences to judeism. this is not an excuse by skeptics, it's fact.
False, as proved by the oldest book in the Bible - Job.
Furthermore we have to consider how the Jews thought about Satan at the time of Jesus's earthly ministry before His crucifixion and resurrection. And there Satan is an individual evil being -
"And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, He has Beezebul, and by the ruler of the demons He casts out the demons.
And He [Jesus] called them to Himself and said to them in parable, How can Satan cast out Satan ? ... And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he is not able to stand but has come to an end." (See Mark 3:23-26)
This is a recorded conversation between Jesus and the contemporary Jews of His earthly days. They were not walking around with Christian New Testaments. And the clear understanding between the two is that the ruler of the demons - Beelzebul is Satan. He has a house. He has a kingdom. And he is not divided against himself.
I think the Jewish audience understood what Jesus was saying. The passage is IN the New Testament. However, it was spoken by Jesus and the Jews out of their understanding of the nature of Satan in their time.
Furthermore Jesus refers to the Devil as the murderer from the beginning.
"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks ot out of his own possessions; for he is the liar and the father of it." (John 8:44)
The murderer from the beginning surely refers to the sinful being who instigated Cain to murder his brother Abel in the book of Genesis. That is "the beginning" which Jesus refers to.
And the father of lies also has to refer to the same being who told the very FIRST lie to Adam and Eve. Christ says he is not capable of speaking the truth for there is no truth in him.
So the Devil Jesus speaks of must have been involved in both the lie to the first humans and the instigator of the first murder also.
So the New Testament may shed further light on Satan. But this by no means that this further exposure of Satan is the invention of someone that was not already revealed in the Old Testament.
Originally posted by jaywillyou're imagining things. you don't like to discuss things with me because i always get the better of you with superior knowledge of scripture and history.
I don't like to try to discuss things with you because when you get yourself into a corner in error it seems your way out is to be insulting and blasphemous.
The oldest book of the Bible treats Satan as an individual being as indicated by the specific reference to him coming also with other spiritual beings -
let's see...
"Then one day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, Satan ALSO came among them. [job-1;6 KJV]
wow. that does seem to destroy my assertion, doesn't it?
let's check out some proper translations...
"One day the members of the heavenly court came to present themselves before the LORD, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them. [job-1;6 NLT]
well, that's beginning to make more sense already, but not quiet there.
"And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah, and there doth come also the Adversary in their midst." [job-1;6 YLT]
there we have it. a proper translation of "satan" at last! the hebrews, whose book this is do not derive satan as an individual sentient being named satan because they know what the book of job is (as opposed to you).
satan is a generic term applied to an evil inclination or whoever happens to be an adversary at the time. in job, satan is applied with poetic license to a personification of the accuser.
All the things your wrote about the prosecutor are true yet irrelevant to Satan being the same being throughout the entire Bible. There is nothing new in you informing us that he functioned as a prosecutor.
they are completely relevant since satan is not the name of an individual. it's not in job. it's not anywhere in the old testament. it never is until the new testament rolls around.
False, as proved by the oldest book in the Bible - Job.
you have only proven that 1) you do not have a very good knowledge of ancient hebrew and 2) you have failed to realize that the book of job is written in a poetic verse.
Furthermore we have to consider how the Jews thought about Satan at the time of Jesus's earthly ministry before His crucifixion and resurrection. And there Satan is an individual evil being -
by that time, some sects of jews had been corrupted by foreign influences, hence the appearance of satan as a named specific being in new testament literature. these however did not last long and they were exiled to foreign lands. the jews to this day do not believe in satan as a specific named individual.
from the jewish virtual library:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/satan.html
Judaism does not view the word “Satan” with the same connotation as other religions. Satan in Judaism is not a physical being, ruling the underworld or hell. Rather, in the Torah, the word Satan indicates “accuser,” “hinderer,” or “tempter.” Satan is more an obstacle in one’s way, such as temptation and evil doings, keeping them from completing the responsibilities of tikkun olam (fixing the world). Satan is our evil inclination to veer off the path of righteousness and faithfulness in God.
Throughout the Torah, Satan challenges God to test the true loyalty of his followers, including Adam and Eve, as well as Abraham. However, Satan remains inferior to God and is incapable of taking action on mortals without God’s permission. In the Talmud and Midrash, Satan appears as the force in the world, responsible for all sins. Some Midrashim claim that the sounding of the Shofar on Rosh Hashanah is utilized to keep Satan away as Jews begin to atone for their sins. Even the morning after Yom Kippur, many Jews attend services to guarantee Satan does not make one last effort to instigate Jews to commit sins.
I think the Jewish audience understood what Jesus was saying. The passage is IN the New Testament. However, it was spoken by Jesus and the Jews out of their understanding of the nature of Satan in their time.
Furthermore Jesus refers to the Devil as the murderer from the beginning.
The murderer from the beginning surely refers to the sinful being who instigated Cain to murder his brother Abel in the book of Genesis. That is "the beginning" which Jesus refers to.
And the father of lies also has to refer to the same being who told the very FIRST lie to Adam and Eve. Christ says he is not capable of speaking the truth for there is no truth in him.
So the Devil Jesus speaks of must have been involved in both the lie to the first humans and the instigator of the first murder also.
So the New Testament may shed further light on Satan. But this by no means that this further exposure of Satan is the invention of someone that was not already revealed in the Old Testament.
this line of reasoning is pointless. it doesn't matter what jesus refers to the devil as, or what his alleged jewish audience thought. i've already stated that satan makes an appearance as a specific named individual in the new testament and you're proving my point (thanks, by the way).
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Originally posted by VoidSpiritEvil is personified in Mara, the Buddhist Devil, who represents temptation, sin, and
buddhists believe satan? really?
islam is an offshoot of christianity
jews don't belive in a sentient/personified satan.
get your facts straight then get back to me.
death. He is identified with Namuche, one of the wicked demons in Indian mythology
http://www.sacred-texts.com/evil/hod/hod10.htm
that Islam is an alleged offshoot of Christianity is a nonsense, Muslims
profess belief in a Devil, refuting your silly assertion that the devil exists solely
because of Christianity. There is no textual dependency of the Koran on the Bible
and Islam exists as an independent reality, in fact, Muslims reject the core doctrine
of Christianity, the sacrificial death of Christ, it is more akin to Judaism, than
Christianity, you are havering.
that its sentient or otherwise again is not the question, is it, the devil exists in some
form making your assertion, ludicrous.
if you are going to continue to spread your ignorance you will be called out time and
again for it, so clean up your act spanklberger, for your own sake.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieMara is really more of a Hindu concept than Buddhist. Obviously it has some relevance to the origins of Buddhism, it having originated within Hindu society, but to take this outmoded concept as basis for an argument that Buddhists in general believe in Satan is, I'm afraid, not at all correct. One of the great attractions of Buddhism is the fact that it doesn't ask you to believe in supernatural beings.
Evil is personified in Mara, the Buddhist Devil, who represents temptation, sin, and
death. He is identified with Namuche, one of the wicked demons in Indian mythology
http://www.sacred-texts.com/evil/hod/hod10.htm
that Islam is an alleged offshoot of Christianity is a nonsense, Muslims
profess belief in a Devil, refuting your silly asserti ...[text shortened]... ill be called out time and
again for it, so clean up your act spanklberger, for your own sake.
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Originally posted by avalanchethecatThe sacred text has been written and cannot be annulled and of course i did not author
Mara is really more of a Hindu concept than Buddhist. Obviously it has some relevance to the origins of Buddhism, it having originated within Hindu society, but to take this outmoded concept as basis for an argument that Buddhists in general believe in Satan is, I'm afraid, not at all correct. One of the great attractions of Buddhism is the fact that it doesn't ask you to believe in supernatural beings.
the quotation, just saying, it was merely expedient to provide a reference.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieSacred texts are very often not taken literally - I know some of the christians on RHP struggle with this idea but it's really quite widespread. And you were providing the reference to back up a false assertion you made, being that buddhists believe in the devil.
The sacred text has been written and cannot be annulled and of course i did not author
the quotation, just saying, it was merely expedient to provide a reference.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieyou have your mythologies confused we are talking about satan. besides, did you even bother to read the quoted link?
Evil is personified in Mara, the Buddhist Devil, who represents temptation, sin, and
death. He is identified with Namuche, one of the wicked demons in Indian mythology
http://www.sacred-texts.com/evil/hod/hod10.htm
that its sentient or otherwise again is not the question, is it, the devil exists in some
form making your assertion, ludicrous.
"In the Dhammapada, Mara is not so much a person as a personification. The allegorical nature of the Evil One is plainly felt in every passage in which Mara's name occurs. "
this is identical to the hebrew conception of satan. it has nothing to do with the christian idea of a specific evil being named satan.
but don't fret, you'll be able to find demons and djinn in many other cultures, but don't think that will help you. the existence of these are irrelevant to my argument.
that Islam is an alleged offshoot of Christianity is a nonsense, Muslims
profess belief in a Devil, refuting your silly assertion that the devil exists solely
because of Christianity. There is no textual dependency of the Koran on the Bible
and Islam exists as an independent reality, in fact, Muslims reject the core doctrine
of Christianity, the sacrificial death of Christ, it is more akin to Judaism, than
Christianity, you are havering.
your argument is irrelevant, islam came centuries after christianity and my argument that satan didn't become an individual specific being until the new testament remains uncontested.
if you are going to continue to spread your ignorance you will be called out time and
again for it, so clean up your act spanklberger, for your own sake.
you should take your own advice, i just revealed more of your ignorance. i asked you to get your facts straight and get back to me; you got back to me without getting your facts straight. pity.
Originally posted by VoidSpiritYour statement was erroneous and no amount of posturing , projecting, references to
you have your mythologies confused we are talking about satan. besides, did you even bother to read the quoted link?
"In the Dhammapada, Mara is not so much a person as a personification. The allegorical nature of the Evil One is plainly felt in every passage in which Mara's name occurs. "
this is identical to the hebrew conception of satan. it ...[text shortened]... raight and get back to me; you got back to me without getting your facts straight. pity.
personification or anything else will save you, fess up and take your medicine like a
man.
Originally posted by SuzianneThe religion you believe in directs your life, not your destiny, as in your afterlife. Believing or not believing leads to exactly the same destiny. We become part of something else after we die. Namely, bugs, plant life, bird food, recycled into dirt that eventually gets floated around with water and becomes part of the whole Earth.
Freedom FROM religion is up to you.
If you feel content in "taking your ball and going home", then by all means do so.
What I want is Freedom from "Freedom FROM religion".
Please don't try to convince me that my Savior does not exist, that my salvation is a sick and twisted daydream, that my Creator is as real as Santa Claus. I have as much Free W ...[text shortened]... religion"? Then please grant me Freedom from your "Freedom FROM religion".
That is our true destiny. All you have is words to suggest otherwise. A hundred billion people believing exactly as you do will not change destiny by one second or deflect it from any other reality. A hundred billion people NOT believing exactly as you do will not change destiny by one second or deflect it from any other reality.
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Originally posted by avalanchethecatwhether they are to be taken literally or otherwise is not the point, both you and void
Sacred texts are very often not taken literally - I know some of the christians on RHP struggle with this idea but it's really quite widespread. And you were providing the reference to back up a false assertion you made, being that buddhists believe in the devil.
spirit are attempting to argue away the fact that there is a basis in some form or
another, that its not a literal devil is a proviso added by you and him, not by me. The
assertion was and remains true, you bad ol putty cat.
Originally posted by VoidSpiritwelcome to this eerie other side of robbie carrobie. Tis true you may have met him but I believe this unique- all- knowing- JW- prophet- carpenter was much more prevelant in these parts just before you arrived. With the standard back and forth with various forum members robbie would slay them one by one then ride off on his steed on a daily basis.
right, i accept your capitulation.
So if he says Buddhists believe in the devil then who am I to disagree?