Originally posted by jaywillCould you explain how this directive (Deuteronomy 6:4,5) is a moral directive?
No Way !!! That's too hard. I'm outta here !!
Good question. I think it is clearly moral directive because of who Yahweh says that He is - namely the source of all justice and goodness PERIOD. If you grasp that I think you can see that the FIRST t ...[text shortened]... olution has done this - random mutation with natural selection. I'm thinking about it.
I am told so far that Evolution has done this - random mutation with natural selection. I'm thinking about it.
Still thinking?
--- Penguin
Originally posted by jaywill""Hear, O Israel, Jehovah is our God; Jehovah is one. And you shall love Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might." (Deuteronomy 6:4,5) [/b]"Perhaps you could give us an example of an absolute moral directive from the bible.
Why do you want me to do that ?
I don't mind. However, even if there were no moral directive in the Bible or no Bible, don't you think we humans would still have this sense of a moral obligation in which, at least in some times, certain things would j ...[text shortened]... our soul and with all your might." (Deuteronomy 6:4,5)
This sounds absolute to me.[/b]
But that has nothing to do with morality, that is a demand from a more powerful entity (real or imagined) for the weaker entity to love it.
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Originally posted by PenguinYes. But I am writing now without going too carefully on everything that has been submitted above.I am told so far that Evolution has done this - random mutation with natural selection. I'm thinking about it.
Still thinking?
--- Penguin
If I recall rightly, I think you said that I was mistaken to view Evolution as working towards the survival of the individual. But the species, for which I assume evolution DOES work for its survival, is composed of individuals.
How else can aggregate survival be applied if not to individuals of the group ?
When we act against out instincts, I wonder what is going on there in your Evolutionary framework. I hear a scuffle in the alley. My instincts tell me not to get involved. Yet something else in the conscience urges me to act to risk well-being to assist someone in trouble.
This is conflicting intuitions. You have said, survival of individuals is not a work of evolution. But if the species is engineered to survive the application of rescue has to be applied to this individual of the group. Otherwise I don't know how species survival has a practical application.
Again, I am running on pure memory here. I have not gone over again the development of each post yet.
Originally posted by kevcvs57
""Hear, O Israel, Jehovah is our God; Jehovah is one. And you shall love Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might." (Deuteronomy 6:4,5) "
But that has nothing to do with morality, that is a demand from a more powerful entity (real or imagined) for the weaker entity to love it.[/b]
""Hear, O Israel, Jehovah is our God; Jehovah is one. And you shall love Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might." (Deuteronomy 6:4,5) "
But that has nothing to do with morality, that is a demand from a more powerful entity (real or imagined) for the weaker entity to love it.
It has to do with Israel being a perculiar righteous treasure amid all the other nations of the earth. To them alone God has given a special covenant relationship. Accordingly, in thier superior morality they will be a light to the nations. Because of thier special covenant relationship with Yahweh they will be a true example of right and righteous humanity, exemplary, a kingdom of priests, a light to the nations morally and spiritually.
So the command to love God first with the whole being is the first step. All else in moral uprightness will flow from that in principle.
It is not simply the bully deity arbitrarily playing despot for no other reason than to play despot.
He also specifies that the commandment that He gives Israel are the righteous commandments by which MAN in general may live rightly. This is important. This means that He selects a particular people Israel, to have this covenant with. But the laws are the laws by which mankind as a whole may be justified before God as right. That makes thier morality universal.
"So you shall keep My statutes and My ordinaces, by which, if a man does them, he will live; I am Jehovah" (Lev. 18:5)
Now as it stands, the law exposes that we all have sinned and are in need of redemption and reconciliation though the Jewish Messiah as the world's Savior. But the law given to the covenant community reveals the standard of human rightness God intended.
The first commandment is to turn the whole being toward this God with absolute love. So I definitely view this as related to morality.
"And now, O Israel, what does Jehovah your God ask of you execpt that you fear Jehovah your God so that you would walk in all His waus and love Him and serve Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
So that you would keep the commandments of Jehovah and His statutes, which I am commanding you today, for your good. Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens belong to Jehovah your God, the earth and all that is in it." (Deut. 10:12-14)
"For if you are certain to keep all this commandment which I am commanding you to do, to love Jehovah your God, to walk in all His ways and hold fastto Him, Jewhovah will dispossess all these nations from before you, and you will disposess nations greater and mightier than you." (11:22,23)
[b]"For you are a holy people to Jehovah your God; it is you whom Jehovah your God has chosen from among all the peoples which are upon the face of the earth to be a people for His personal treasure." (7:6)
Originally posted by jaywillI like that Jewhovah spelling. It seems to indicated where the name "Jew" came from. He is calling out a people according to His name. Perhaps it is just a different spelling of the name Judah and the tribe of Judah, the Jews.""Hear, O Israel, Jehovah is our God; Jehovah is one. And you shall love Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might." (Deuteronomy 6:4,5) "
But that has nothing to do with morality, that is a demand from a more powerful entity (real or imagined) for the weaker entity to love it.
It has to do ...[text shortened]... ich are upon the face of the earth to be a people for His personal treasure." (7:6)
Originally posted by VoidSpiritThe chimpanzees are your closest cousins? No wonder you act as you do. May God help you to see the light.Either way, the moral sense is in man. For those of you who think God of the Bible is imagination, I ask, where does the innate moral law in man come from ?
I am told so far that Evolution has done this - random mutation with natural selection. I'm thinking about it.
while thinking about it, also think about where the innate moral sen ...[text shortened]... atures comes from. from our closest cousins, the chimpanzees all the way down to the tiny ant.
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Originally posted by jaywillWhat he said was:
If I recall rightly, I think you said that I was mistaken to view Evolution as working towards the survival of the individual. But the species, for which I assume evolution DOES work for its survival, is composed of individuals.
... evolution works for the survival of the gene.
When we act against out instincts, I wonder what is going on there in your Evolutionary framework. I hear a scuffle in the alley. My instincts tell me not to get involved. Yet something else in the conscience urges me to act to risk well-being to assist someone in trouble.
This is conflicting intuitions.
Why do you label one urge 'instinct' and the other 'conscience'? Surely both are instincts?
The two instincts are in conflict as you say, which is exactly what we should expect from evolution. It is not what we would expect from a god provided moral code - unless God provided the moral code for the express purpose of assisting survival of genes (which is possible and would be indistinguishable from one that arose via evolution).
Survival of a gene depends on a number of factors. There is a drive to:
1. Encourage the survival of the individual.
2. Encourage the survival of other individuals with a similar gene.
3. Encourage the survival of the gene in preference to other competing genes.
There is a delicate balance between survival as a group and competition within a group. If you are too selfish, you kill off the whole group, yourself included. If you are too nice, somebody else takes advantage of it. This balance explains why humans are not all giving and all loving. Not only do some behave selfishly at the expense of others, but we try our best to try to discourage such behavior in others. All this can be explained through evolution but not through theology.
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Originally posted by twhiteheadWhere did the DNA information language code come from? How did it get in the living cells of all living creatures. Why is it that the language code gives instructions for combining the amino acids to produce the right protein structure for reproducing the right kind of cells that make up each organ and part of a specialized organism? It is the way we stay alive. When things go wrong and it stops working right we eventually die. It is also the way each animal reproduces another like itself after mating. I believe God designed and programmed it in there from the beginning of creation. It didn't just "evolve" from nothing or a rock.
You question it, but give no actual reasons for why you might think it is not the case other than your religious beliefs.
The advantages of collective survival is not unique to man, it is common to almost all life forms, even bacteria exhibit such traits. What is most telling, is that the structure of the collective survival predicted by evolution is e ...[text shortened]... t from an evolutionary standpoint but is not what we would expect from a god provide moral code.
Originally posted by RJHindsOr maybe it was written by a Jew you blind fool.
I like that Jewhovah spelling. It seems to indicated where the name "Jew" came from. He is calling out a people according to His name. Perhaps it is just a different spelling of the name Judah and the tribe of Judah, the Jews.
Originally posted by twhitehead
What he said was:... evolution works for the survival of the [b]gene.
When we act against out instincts, I wonder what is going on there in your Evolutionary framework. I hear a scuffle in the alley. My instincts tell me not to get involved. Yet something else in the conscience urges me to act to risk well-being to assist someo ...[text shortened]... ch behavior in others. All this can be explained through evolution but not through theology.There is no biological evolution. Animals do not evolve. They breed and reproduce after their own kind as God has programmed it to work. There is allowances for certain adaptations and inheritance of features from both parents, but they always reproduced according to the DNA program made by God for each type of creature He created. That is, they can not change from one type (kind) of creature to another that is not within the programs of the mating parents. It is a fact that biological evolution does not happen and it never has. What some people call evolution is simply the combining of the DNA programs of the two parents in the reproduction process that can result in adaptation and limited changes in size, structure, and color of the same kind of animals. There is no possible way a kind of creature can evolve into another kind of creature, because it is prohibited by the DNA programming by God the Creator and Designer.
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Originally posted by RJHindsYou can believe that crap all you want but don't expect anyone here to fall for that ancient line of BS. Remember, our brains are not profoundly brainwashed. If new evidence comes in, say a 400 million year old rabbit fossil, then we will follow suit and change our ideas of evolution. Till then, your tired fairy tales cut no mustard.
There is no biological evolution. Animals do not evolve. They breed and reproduce after their own kind as God has programmed it to work. There is allowances for certain adaptations and inheritance of features from both parents, but they always reproduced according to the DNA program made by God for each type of creature He created. That is, they can not ...[text shortened]... nd of creature, because it is prohibited by the DNA programming by God the Creator and Designer.
Remember again, you think we are the ones brainwashed but we are the ones who can change. You cannot and never will. That is the sure sign of profound brainwashing.
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Originally posted by jaywill" Once again, the outward moral directive of the Bible or any other sacred book is not the main issue with me here. It is the innate sense of moral law in all human beings. "Could you explain how this directive (Deuteronomy 6:4,5) is a moral directive?
No Way !!! That's too hard. I'm outta here !!
Good question. I think it is clearly moral directive because of who Yahweh says that He is - namely the source of all justice and goodness PERIOD. If you grasp that I think you can see that the FIRST t olution has done this - random mutation with natural selection. I'm thinking about it.
The intimate involvement and intervention of God in human history is what the Bible is all about.
The innate sense of moral law does not naturally induce love of God. If it did, there would be no need for an outward moral directive of the Bible. It would be as strongly felt as the survival mechanism. We expand the sphere of our survival mechanism beyond ourselves when we develop an empathetic relationships with others such as our children and others we would die to protect. Some believers can include such figures as Jesus in their empathetic sphere. After all, Jesus' self sacrifice is a model and symbol of that empathetic relationship.
It sounds as though you are not completely unfriendly to the idea that biological evolution shapes our senses; if the idea allows for God to be actively using the natural order of things, which He created, to carry out His plan. So I don't see any reason to hold back your acceptance of a natural evolutionary development of the moral sense, on the basis that accepting evolution will force rejection of your theology. It shouldn't do that.
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Originally posted by sonhouseThe Earth is just a few thousand years old, so that 400 million year old rabbit fossil is only in your dream of a magician pulling it out of his hat or his arse. 😀
You can believe that crap all you want but don't expect anyone here to fall for that ancient line of BS. Remember, our brains are not profoundly brainwashed. If new evidence comes in, say a 400 million year old rabbit fossil, then we will follow suit and change our ideas of evolution. Till then, your tired fairy tales cut no mustard.
Remember again, you ...[text shortened]... ones who can change. You cannot and never will. That is the sure sign of profound brainwashing.