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Originally posted by JS357God did not use or does not use biological evolution to shape anything. That is a lie from the Devil. 😏
" Once again, the outward moral directive of the Bible or any other sacred book is not the main issue with me here. It is the innate sense of moral law in all human beings. "
The intimate involvement and intervention of God in human history is what the Bible is all about.
The innate sense of moral law does not naturally induce love of God. If it did, th that accepting evolution will force rejection of your theology. It shouldn't do that. [/b]
P.S. It is in the DNA, numbnuts!
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Originally posted by JS357
" Once again, the outward moral directive of the Bible or any other sacred book is not the main issue with me here. It is the innate sense of moral law in all human beings. "
The intimate involvement and intervention of God in human history is what the Bible is all about.
The innate sense of moral law does not naturally induce love of God. If it did, th that accepting evolution will force rejection of your theology. It shouldn't do that. [/b]
Me:
" Once again, the outward moral directive of the Bible or any other sacred book is not the main issue with me here. It is the innate sense of moral law in all human beings. "
The intimate involvement and intervention of God in human history is what the Bible is all about.
That is one of the things it is about. It is also about the Law given by God to a chosen people Israel. Now Paul says that the Gentiles have no law of Moses, however the law is written on thier hearts and that they do by nature the things of the law.
This would apply to special ordinances, special ritualistic details. But Paul must have mean a morality from God is stamped upon all created men.
"For when the Gentiles, who have no law, do by nature the things of the law, these, having no law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written on their hearts, their conscience bearing witness with it and their reasonings ..." (Romans 2:15a)
The work of the Mosiac law is written on the Gentiles' hearts, those who did not receive the Law of Moses binding upon Israel.
I am arguing pretty much the same thing. There is an innate Moral Law "written" on the hearts of men and women.
The innate sense of moral law does not naturally induce love of God.
The command to love Yahweh is a revelation. No the nations do not have a special revelation of Who it is specifically as the God Creator. So I do understand that there is that which is specifically revealed by divine revelation and that which is intuitively sensed in nature.
That no special revelation of the God of Israel is innate on man's heart does not mean there is no Moral Law innate in his being.
If it did, there would be no need for an outward moral directive of the Bible.
This doesn't follow. First, I admit that the command to love specifically Jehovah the covenant God of Israel is special revelation and not innate moral sense.
Secondly, biblically speaking it is normal that God should remind Israel or man, by revelation, to love Him because God is ever striving against the sin nature of the fall of man which gravitates man away from God. Normally then, God has to TELL them to love Him.
More than that. Eventually He has to BE that love by imparting the Spirit of His Son into them. That is going into the New Testament.The only point here is that, the fall being what it is, God would tell man to love Him quite deliberately.
He would tell man to swim upstream from the downward current of the sin nature.
Back to the matter of the innate Moral Law in man. I think it is sufficient to demonstrate the universal inward Moral Law in man exists by other means. There is probably no culture that exalted cowardice. And all cultures hold in high esteem bravery. That is sufficient to demontrate a universal Moral Law.
It would be as strongly felt as the survival mechanism. We expand the sphere of our survival mechanism beyond ourselves when we develop an empathetic relationships with others such as our children and others we would die to protect. Some believers can include such figures as Jesus in their empathetic sphere. After all, Jesus' self sacrifice is a model and symbol of that empathetic relationship.
The redemption accomplished by Christ is a non-repeatable act that no other human being was or ever will be qualified to perform.
If you take away the redemptive side of it, yes, agree that adherance to the will of God above self preservation, is examplified in that act. However, it is an entirely God centered act. It was a sacrifice because He chose that God's will be done no matter what.
This was not therefore a typical martyrdom for fellow man. This was absoluteness to the will of the Father. Had Jesus really wanted to die for man and it had NOT been the Father's will, He would have sacrificed ultimately by NOT being executed on the cross.
The only thing that mattered to Him was the fulfullment of the Father's will.
It sounds as though you are not completely unfriendly to the idea that biological evolution shapes our senses; if the idea allows for God to be actively using the natural order of things, which He created, to carry out His plan. So I don't see any reason to hold back your acceptance of a natural evolutionary development of the moral sense, on the basis that accepting evolution will force rejection of your theology. It shouldn't do that.
Fundamntal to Paul's exposition of the nature of salvation is that we recognize that there was a FIRST Man - Adam. The blurring of that in Evolution would be my first concern.
Variation within species, I have no problem with. Moths can change colors. Finches can have peaks shrink and grow.
I think God created a definite FIRST man and from him a FIRST woman - Adam and Eve.
The Bible may not stress an innate love by man towards a Creator. But it does say that a belief in intelligent creation is something obvious to all people. Through the things made, no one is with excuse, that they cannot see that a Mind is behind the creation of the world. That is a mind of infinite intelligence and power.
This is also in Romans.
"Because that which is known of God is manifest within them, for God manifested it to them. For the invisible things of Him, both His eternal power and divine characteristics, have been clearly since the creation of the world, being perceived by the things made, so that they are without excuse ..." (Rom. 1:19,20)
I don't think this is special revelation. This is intuitive knowledge. Man, says the Apostle Paul, has no excuse not to understand that there is a God. This is because of the things made.
Now they may not be THANKFUL to that Mind.
They may not agree that the things made are right.
They may imagine that they could have done a better job in places.
But they see, Paul says, the eternal power and divine characteristics of a Creator because of the things made.
Originally posted by sonhouseI am not sure what warranted your outburst, my quotation is taken from the TV series
So show me your god. Have it call out to me personally. You seem to have an in with it. Tell it I need saving and the only way that will happen if it comes down and reveals itself to me. Show me the money.
Kung Fu, which is essentially a celebration of Shaolin Buddhism. Why you constantly
need to berate those who do not share your world view i cannot say, personally, I think
its a reflection of your insecurity.
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieI wasn't berating anyone. I was merely pointing out only humans do the god thing. Gods do not do the god thing here on Earth at least. Humans are the ones who claim there is some kind of god, which might even be true but not here on Earth. There are too many religions where the adherents are at each other's throats as you very well know.
I am not sure what warranted your outburst, my quotation is taken from the TV series
Kung Fu, which is essentially a celebration of Shaolin Buddhism. Why you constantly
need to berate those who do not share your world view i cannot say, personally, I think
its a reflection of your insecurity.
My contention is a real god would not feel so callously towards its playthings as to set up religions where religious wars are the result.
The fact and it is a fact, that such religious warfare goes on, has gone on, will keep on going on in the future to any century you care to name, shows me there is no god interacting with mankind.
Therefore, all the religions on Earth are 100% man made with dozens of creation stories, some we would consider totally off the wall, bizarre and such like Adam and Eve, an off the wall tale if there ever was one. The very idea there was only 2 humans that started the entire human race is so up there on the BS scale it is off the charts. We KNOW the DNA strands of races around the world and we know, for instance, chimps have 98 odd percent the exact same genes as humans.
We know from DNA analysis we have common ancestors from many millions of years in the deep past, whether fundamentalists like it or not, genetic scientists can show the changes in DNA and who goes with what species and so forth.
You may be offended, no doubt are, but the truth is your god and all the others on Earth have exactly the same status, MANMADE in all their variations.
You see biblical verses from your own bible which is supposedly infallible and it has contradictory verses so you cherry pick the ones which happen to fit your own world view and just dismiss the rest as not having meaning in our modern world.
The thing is, you don't get to do that and still call yourself Christian. Or Paulist, whatever. Your bible is to be taken literally or it is not taken at all. Mere humans don't get to cherry pick that which they believe and that which the think suits them, at least that month.