Human Rights in Islamic Countries

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
...an archaic, epistemically unjustifiable belief system at the root of their oppressive policies. You could increase their existing wealth ten times over, but if the existing belief systems remain respected rather than ridiculed, all that money will do nothing to improve the status of women.

Nothing ever changes? Is that your point?

From The Economist, May 21st 2009 Reveal Hidden Content and

In an election in Kuwait, four women were elected, for the first time in an open, multi-candidate poll in a Gulf monarchy. Islamists did worse than before. But the royal family will continue to find it hard to control parliament, which has been dissolved three times in three years.

Here's a less edifying story from the region (taken from the same Economist article Reveal Hidden Content). Looks like those of wishing for change there, will have to be patient and champion the work of those wroking from within:

Saudi Arabia’s rulers, for instance, have just scorned another of the numerous petitions from their people demanding democratising reforms, showing disdain by abruptly postponing the only elections the country runs, to half the seats on town councils that do not do much anyway. In the kingdom, Ms Mubarak [one of the women who got elected to parliament in Kuwait] would not only be denied the right to vote or run for public office. She could not drive to such an office in her own car, or even sit in it if that might mean mingling with the opposite sex.

You said "...but in a hundred years time [...] the Muslim countries of the Middle East will still be human rights wastelands, as they have been for centuries on end, and the fact that people fail to indict Islam as the culprit only exacerbates that reality."

And yet the actual real life story from Saudi Arabia is that change is in the wind. Notice "the numerous petitions from their people demanding democratising reforms". Doesn't quite sound like the picture you painted. And what about your timescale - "hundreds of years" with no sign or hope of change - upon what do you base this assertion?

"Four women were elected, for the first time in an open, multi-candidate poll..." in Kuwait, only 20 years after the U.S. intervened to prop up the Islamist monarchy there - back when women in parliament was beyond any Kuwaiti's wildest dreams.

And that's what it's really about, surely? Politics. Power. The problem in Kuwait has been its royal family. The problem in Saudi Arabia is its royal family - the absolute monarchs. And yet Kuwait has changed and is changing. And in Saudi, with the growing numbers of people bravely petitioning the ruling regime, demanding democratising reforms, it is recognized that the problem is political - it's a question of democratization - of championing reform - of standing up to the monarchy. Surely "theological reform" is a question for Muslims and Saudis, and not for DoctorScribbles?

If we were to "indict Islam" as you urge, rather than the actual causes of the political problem, how is that going to work? And, besides, I am beginning to question the sincerity and integrity of your aims. After all you urge me to "indict Islam" because of the actions of Indonesia's Detachment-88 against those whom the secular state there deems to be terrorists (because they are separatists). What has Detachment-88's actions got to do with Islam? Your prescription for modernization of the Islamic world (approximately "Let's ridicule their culture!" ) is at best flawed, and at worst driven by a rather clueless bigotry.

Change will come eventually. People like you said that Kuwait would never ever change. The realities of power and politics will be changed and, no doubt, the nature of religious practice will be transformed - from within - in the wake of that democratization. Saudi reformers can take heart from recent changes in Kuwait. And reformers in Kuwait can take heart from what they can see in big, moderate, rapidly modernizing Muslim countries, like Indonesia.

Originally posted by FMF
Ignorant and/or disingenuous rubbish intended to spread hatred and obscure reality.

If adult Christians proselyltising to Muslim children is "practi[sing] your religion or exercis[ing] your conscience" then you can keep it!

As the wildly biased web site's account of this isolated incident from 4 years ago (in this nation of 230,000,000 people) tries so ha o propogate your nasty little smear and hate agenda.

Same old, same old.

Lol, it seems to have created the desired effect, and why is there hundreds of cases every year of persons also being incarcerated for exercising their conscience as in the case of conscientious objection to military service, for is it illegal to exercise your free will and conscience in this regard? for in Indonesia, that bastion of all that is free, progressive and liberal, as you are aware, there is no known legal provision for conscientious objection, nuthing, zilcho, what have you to say now, you bad ol putty cat!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Lol, it seems to have created the desired effect, and why is there hundreds of cases every year of persons also being incarcerated for exercising their conscience as in the case of conscientious objection to military service, for it is illegal to exercise your free will and conscience in this regard, is it not? for in Indonesia, that bastion of all t ...[text shortened]... on for conscientious objection, nuthing, zilcho, what have you to say now, you bad ol putty cat!

What I have to say is that I treated your link seriously and wrote a careful and considered reply, analyzing the case you raised.

So your fatuous retort - which smacks of you not having really read the post or properly digested any of the points I made - is pathetic and disappointing.

And typical, perhaps.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
there [are] hundreds of cases every year of persons also being incarcerated for exercising their conscience as in the case of conscientious objection to military service, for is it illegal to exercise your free will and conscience in this regard? for in Indonesia, that bastion of all that is free, progressive and liberal, as you are aware, there is no known legal provision for conscientious objection

You seem to be mistaken. What "military service"? What "conscientious objection"?

Originally posted by FMF
What I have to say is that I treated your link seriously and wrote a careful and considered reply, analyzing the case you raised.

So your fatuous retort - which smacks of you not having really read the post or properly digested any of the points I made - is pathetic and disappointing.

And typical, perhaps.

i read and treated it in the same manner that i usually read fiction, in a whimsical and nonchalant manner, what else is there to do? as for your other baseless assertions, im sure they are serious enough for those hundreds of persons who are incarcerated every year, for there is 'not much in nature that can stand being locked up', is there FMF?,

quotation from Robert Louis Stevensons novel, Treasure Island, attributed to Long John Silver 🙂

Originally posted by FMF
You seem to be mistaken. What "military service"? What "conscientious objection"?

oh FMF please don't make me search the net again for more references, are you a resident and unaware of the constitution?

http://www.mahkamahkonstitusi.go.id/eng/berita.php?newscode=1831

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
oh FMF please don't make me search the net again for more references, are you a resident and unaware of the constitution?

http://www.mahkamahkonstitusi.go.id/eng/berita.php?newscode=1831

The link you provided is about the legal situation in South Korea and not Indonesia.

There is no military service in Indonesia. No national service. Indonesia has a volunteer army. There is no conscription here. And there is no more likely to be conscription here than there is in the UK. There is no "military service" that you talked about. You are mistaken.

As I said, the link you provided is about the legal situation viz a viz conscientious objection in South Korea.

You are also bizarrely clutching at straws. My contention is that Indonesia is a stable, moderate, rapidly modernizing Muslim country. And your comeback is a news story about conscientious objection in South Korea?

http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/308829.html

Absolutely bizarre!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i read and treated it in the same manner that i usually read fiction, in a whimsical and nonchalant manner, what else is there to do?

Good for you.

Originally posted by FMF
Good for you.

Some people are incapable of comprehending the world as it is. They are unable to pay attention to anything except the furious muddle of self that rolls around in their heads and which (unfortunately for this rest of us) periodically tosses off debris. You can really only feel sorry for these people. Their disease will not allow them to ask for help and they usually respond violently when any is offered.

Originally posted by FMF
The link you provided is about the legal situation in South Korea and not Indonesia.

There is no military service in Indonesia. No national service. Indonesia has a volunteer army. There is no conscription here. And there is no more likely to be conscription here than there is in the UK. There is no "military service" that you talked about. You are mistaken. ...[text shortened]...
http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/308829.html

Absolutely bizarre!

Do you deny the Koran demands the killing of infidels? Do you deny the very first expansion of Islam was done by war? Do you say groups like the Taliban are not "really" Islam? I think they would beg to differ with you. I think there are ultra right wing Islam groups in your own country who would like nothing better than to take over all of Indonesia and turn it into a Taliban hell. What do you do about that? Just kill them as they come up? Also, what is the justification for having a religious based society in the first place? All I see is injustice for all in ANY religious country. The real asssholes in the US for instance, trying to take over the education system to justify their stupid stance on creationism, the so-called modernization of Saudi society? I would recommend you read a book called "In the land of invisible Women, by Qanta A. Ahmed, MD' the story of a VERY muslim woman educated to be a doctor, in the US and taking a position as a doctor in Saudi, and tell me what your think. The Royal family made a devil's bargain with the Mutaweaeen, the religious thugs who enforce Sharia law there, the royal family used them to unite the tribes of Arabia but now are as much afraid of them as any normal person would be, with nobody safe from Mutawaeen tyranny. It is just one step away from deposing the monarchy and making it another Taliban society. The monarchy has a tiger by its tail and does not know what to do about it. The Mutawaeen thugs are like a cancer in that society. What would you do about that if it tried to arise in Indonesia?
It has always been my opinion that ALL religious based societies are immature, not mature enough to fashion a secular morality and instead resort to bible thumpers, Koran thumpers, and their like in other religions. With all the religious based warfare already going on and has gone on for two thousand years, it is my considered opinion ALL these religious based societies are just a bunch of immature children spouting their local religions and not allowing other kinds to flourish. What would happen in Indonesia if Christianity were to become majority there or Baha'i? I think there would be a war. Tell me I'm wrong.

Originally posted by FMF
In what way do you mean 'bold'?

not hesitating or fearful in the face of actual or possible danger,
not hesitating to break the rules of propriety; forward; impudent.

Originally posted by FMF
The link you provided is about the legal situation in South Korea and not Indonesia.

There is no military service in Indonesia. No national service. Indonesia has a volunteer army. There is no conscription here. And there is no more likely to be conscription here than there is in the UK. There is no "military service" that you talked about. You are mistaken. ...[text shortened]...
http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/308829.html

Absolutely bizarre!

No more danger of conscription than the U.K., oh really!

The proposed revision to the Reserve Forces Act (RUU Komponen Cadangan), put forward by the Department of Defence and which will go

before the parliament in early 2008, contains clauses that will make Army training or service compulsory (wajib militer, wamil) for all citizens aged 18-45.

Conscription is enshrined in the 1945 Constitution. According to art. 179: "The Federal Law enacts regulations on the right and duty of all able citizens to assist in the maintenance of the independence of the Republic (...) and in the defence of the territory. The Federal Law regulates the exercise of this right and duty and determines the exceptions thereof." Art. 180, par.1 reads: "The armed forces of the republic (...) are entrusted with the protection of the interests of the Republic. (...) they shall consist of volunteers and conscripts. 2. The Federal Law stipulates compulsory service in the armed forces."

Legislation providing for conscription has existed ever since the achievement of independence in 1948. The present legal basis of conscription is laid down in the 1988 Law on Conditions of Military Service, according to which Indonesians may be conscripted into the regular armed forces for two years and into the reserve forces for five years.

Conscription has, however, never been enforced in general apart from certain forms of selective conscription (see: military service). Voluntary applications are usually sufficient to obtain the requisite number of recruits, as in Indonesia a military career is widely regarded as a step on the social ladder.

http://www.wri-irg.org/node/1281

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Lol, it seems to have created the desired effect, and why is there hundreds of cases every year of persons also being incarcerated for exercising their conscience as in the case of conscientious objection to military service, for is it illegal to exercise your free will and conscience in this regard? for in Indonesia, that bastion of all that is free ...[text shortened]... on for conscientious objection, nuthing, zilcho, what have you to say now, you bad ol putty cat!

Is it because of religion though? Or is it because of militarism?

Originally posted by scherzo
Is it because of religion though? Or is it because of militarism?

i would say, Scherzo my friend, in retrospect, it would have to be political/militarism 🙂

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i would say, Scherzo my friend, in retrospect, it would have to be political/militarism 🙂

Indeed.

The rest of this post is directed at our dear friend Dr. Scribbles.

Dr., Nicaragua and El Salvador are both Christian countries. Their population is almost completely Catholic, and they follow the New Testament as their special Holy writing. Their laws are worse than Jordan or Lebanon.

They are.

The Vatican has horrible laws too. If you would like to call the Vatican Muslim, then this thread is over.

The reason that many Muslim countries have bad human rights laws is not because they're Muslim. Keep in mind, the whole stonings and killings and all, that's taken from the Old Testament. It's because they're divided by class from the rest of the First world.