Originally posted by FMF
Well I'm busy this week. And I start lecturing at UGM in July. So maybe we could make a start in June.

Shall we start with the Jews, the Christians or with the Muslims?

I've already been at it for about 5 years on this forum, sharing my ideas with anybody wiling to listen. In agreement with the article cited in the original post, I believe the most effort should be concentrated on exposing the dangers of Islam. There might be a lot of Christians in Norway, but contrasting the level of human rights there and in Saudi Arabia, it should be obvious where change is most needed.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
I've already been at it for about 5 years on this forum, sharing my ideas with anybody wiling to listen. In agreement with the article cited in the original post, I believe the most effort should be concentrated on exposing the dangers of Islam. There might be a lot of Christians in Norway, but contrasting the level of human rights there and in Saudi Arabia, it should be obvious where change is most needed.

Well I see it differently - and more positively than you. Forgive me for cutting & pasting something I have posted before (with a few tweaks):

The "anti-Islam" people here at RHP bristle with lists of horrible atrocities and sweeping generalizations based on the worst cases they can find in depraved corners of the world. Meanwhile, Indonesia - where I happen to live - is surely offering a paradigm of moderate Islam in action, warts and all. Which is pretty interesting because it also happens to be the biggest Muslim country in the world and - perhaps, again - with its secular constitution, multi-faith culture and massive 'young' population, provides some kind of blueprint for the future. So, while we are all regaled day after day here at RHP with descriptions of Muslims and Muslim countries based on grotesque scrapbook of awful stories taken from places like Somalia and Iran, meanwhile the 4th biggest country in the world is providing a completely different narrative - one which the "anti-Islam"faction are quite keen to see overlooked.

While I respect your 5 years of effort trying to reduce human rights violations, taking the oppose-epistemically-unjustifiable-beliefs road, I think, is a hiding to nothing. Broadly speaking, human rights improve as poverty is reduced. Invest in pro-poor policies and healthy democracy can grow. The battle against the profoundly undemocratic things that you attribute to Islam, will be won by way of developing health, education, justice and civil society - gradually and in keeping with varying cultural contexts. The battle you want to see won will not be won by way of theology.

Originally posted by FMF
Broadly speaking, human rights improve as poverty is reduced.

I think this is false.

Saudi Arabia is one of the wealthiest countries and since its discovery of oil, it has seen one of the greatest reductions in poverty and improvement in economic standard of living of citizens in world history. It is also a country where women are not allowed to drive or even step foot out of their homes without a male chaperone.

Vatican City is another state with wealth and a high standard of living. However, women are not eligible to participate in elections of, much less serve as, its head of state.

Aside from being counterexamples to your claim, what these two cases have in common is an archaic, epistemically unjustifiable belief system at the root of their oppressive policies. You could increase their existing wealth ten times over, but if the existing belief systems remain respected rather than ridiculed, all that money will do nothing to improve the status of women. Rather, any forthcoming change for the good of women will necessarily require theological reform.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
I think this is false.

Saudia Arabia and the Vatican City? That's all you can come up with?

You're on a hiding to nothing, as I said before.

Moderate Muslim countries are where you can see where the future lies, not sifting through atrocities in benighted, backward regimes.

Your hobby horse is, in many respects, an admirable one. But if you think the future will be shaped by you barging into the 48 Muslim majority countries around the world, one by one, imposing "theological reform", then all you've got - I'm afraid - is a hobby horse. You offer no plausible vision or realistic route to a better future.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
I wouldn't characterize Zimbabwe, North Korea or Sri Lanka as Islamic countries, and I don't see any common ideology at the root of the human rights violations that take place there. Do you?

Yet you haven't denied the existence of human rights violations in those countries or even shown that they are less egregious or government sanctioned than in Islamic countries, so do you admit that your claim:

Can it be just a coincidence that the most egregious, government-sanctioned human rights violations tend to take place in Islamic countries?

is not supported by the facts?

Have you also eliminated other possible factors as causes for human rights violations? eg cultural aspects or poverty or lack of education?
Maybe it is the Arab or middle east culture that is to blame. Do you have any examples of countries with an Arabic or middle east culture but no Islam that have a significantly better human rights record?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Human Rights in Islamic Countries

I don't think it has to do much if the country is Islamic or not. It has more to do with how long their progression toward democracy have gone.

There are Islamistc countries with a high degree of democracy, and there are Christian countries with a low degree of democracy.

Every Christian country has been in their (none-)level of democracy once. And look what we turned into.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
...the anti-terrorist unit Detachment-88, detained all 22 of them. They were not granted access to legal representation and held incommunicado. They were beaten, forced to crawl on their stomachs over hot asphalt, whipped with an electric cable and had billiard balls forced into their mouths...

What does Detachment-88 have to do with Islam?

Furthermore, the irony of this example you have provided, is that as far as I know Detachment-88 is trained (at least its senior officers and trainers) and equipped by the U.S. military.

Originally posted by FMF
What does Detachment-88 have to do with Islam?

What does women's ineligibility to vote for the head of state in Vatican City have to do with poverty?

What does women's ineligibility to drive or even leave their homes unescorted in Saudi Arabia have to do with poverty?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
What does women's ineligibility to vote for the head of state in Vatican City have to do with poverty?

What does women's ineligibility to drive or even leave their homes unescorted in Saudi Arabia have to do with poverty?

I have no idea what you are talking about or what you're getting at or what you honestly think you're going to achieve by picking those two massively atypical examples and extrapolating.

Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy, one of only four Muslim countries with that form of government in the whole world. It is clearly not a regime I am going to defend or for which I am going to predict rapid transformation. Nor is its almost bizarrely oil-and-only-oil economic basis in any way something from which we can extrapolate any valid theory about the poverty and wealth dichotomy and its bearing on the development of democracy and human rights.

The Vatican City has a unique ecclesiastical and sacerdotal-monarchical system of government and a population of 826 at last count. You're having a laugh, yeah, expecting me to partake in extrapolating 'lessons for the world' from an example such as this?

The other arguments you were coming up with were better and more worthy of your self-professed worthy cause.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
After [the peaceful political protesters'] performance [b]the police, particularly the anti-terrorist unit Detachment-88, detained all 22 of them. They were not granted access to legal representation and held incommunicado. They were beaten, forced to crawl on their stomachs over hot asphalt, whipped with an electric cable and had billiard balls forced into their mouths. etc.[/b]

Come on. Answer the question. What does Detachment-88 have to do with Islam? And how does its actions and purposes differ in any significant way from what we also see in places like Colombia, Myanmar, Gaza, North Korea, Zimbabwe?

Why pick upon Detachment-88 and attribute its activity to Islam?

Are you aware of the flashpoint nature of 'separatism' in Indonesia. What process has enabled you to discount that as the issue at hand when Detachment-88 is doing its thing, and instead deduce that it is "Islam" that explains it?

And what about the irony I mentioned: Detachment-88 anti-terrorist squad being trained and equipped by the U.S.?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
http://www.iheu.org/node/1023

[b]Of all the existing ideologies and religions, Islam remains the greatest danger to humanity.

Is this claim true? I believe it is.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_in_the_Middle_East

[quote]There are some [human rights] issues prevalent in most Middle Eastern countries, often ...[text shortened]... gregious, government-sanctioned human rights violations tend to take place in Islamic countries?

You forgot the Catholic church in Ireland, genius.

Originally posted by scherzo
You forgot the Catholic church in Ireland, genius.

Not as horrendous as Islam. Pretty bad, though.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Not as horrendous as Islam. Pretty bad, though.

I ask you again, have you ever been to a Muslim country??

BTW, Muslim countries include:
Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nigeria, Egypt, Turkey, Iran, Sudan, Algeria, Afghanistan, Morocco, Iraq, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, Uzbekistan, Yemen, Syria, Kazakhstan, Niger, Burkina Faso, Mali, Senegal, Tunisia, Guinea, Somalia, Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Sierra Leone, Libya, Jordan, the UAE, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, Chad, Eritrea, Lebanon, Palestine, Kuwait, Mauritania, Oman, Kosovo, Gambia, Bahrain, Comoros, Qatar, Djibouti, Brunei, and the Maldives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majority_Muslim_countries

Originally posted by scherzo
I ask you again, have you ever been to a Muslim country??

BTW, Muslim countries include:
Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nigeria, Egypt, Turkey, Iran, Sudan, Algeria, Afghanistan, Morocco, Iraq, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, Uzbekistan, Yemen, Syria, Kazakhstan, Niger, Burkina Faso, Mali, Senegal, Tunisia, Guinea, Somalia, Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Sierr ...[text shortened]... r, Djibouti, Brunei, and the Maldives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majority_Muslim_countries

Are you kidding me? I wouldn't venture within a hundred miles of any of those places.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Are you kidding me? I wouldn't venture within a hundred miles of any of those places.

So, who are you to talk about situations in these countries?!? You don't see me commenting on the value of Taoism as a political system (or Shinto, or Hindu, or whatever else is out there)! I live in a very Christian country; I'm from a secular Muslim country; I was born in another secular Muslim country; I've been to a bunch of countries both Christian and Muslim. I can talk. You can't.