Originally posted by scherzo
This sort of caricaturing is necessary to Christianity. It's been going on since the Crusades. Don't expect the more conservative Christians to lighten up in the face of logic.

As for robbie ... he means well. But I think he's been snared.

Lol, i have searched the earth for a greater example my friend, I can find none comparable to the Christ himself.

the beauty of Christianity my friend, is that it allows room for the natural exercise of conscience, both Judaism and Islam, as far as i can tell, do not have this concept, for it has been pre-determined that either something is Halal or Haram, and secondly there is room for forgiveness and repentance, where as you are perfectly aware, both Judaism and Islam have the concept of retribution and recompense!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Lol, i have searched the earth for a greater example my friend, I can find none comparable to the Christ himself.

the beauty of Christianity my friend, is that it allows room for the natural exercise of conscience, both Judaism and Islam, as far as i can tell, do not have this concept, for it has been pre-determined that either something is Halal ...[text shortened]... you are perfectly aware, both Judaism and Islam have the concept of retribution and recompense!

These concepts (all of them) come directly from the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible, if you will). This book is followed by all faithful Jews, Christians, and Muslims. Every single expression of violence that you'd hear a Muslim say comes out of the Old Testament or was inspired by a passage in said Testament. So Christianity is not immune to these problems either.

Originally posted by scherzo
These concepts (all of them) come directly from the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible, if you will). This book is followed by all faithful Jews, Christians, and Muslims. Every single expression of violence that you'd hear a Muslim say comes out of the Old Testament or was inspired by a passage in said Testament. So Christianity is not immune to these problems either.

my friend it has not to do solely with violence, but the exercise of conscience. this is entirely different from Islam and Judaism, which are essentially based on laws, rituals and regulations , and i hold the view, a hypothesis that i have developed from my own thoughts, that such systems, infact, by their very nature, inhibit the free and natural exercise of conscience, is it not the case?

thus if i fancy a nice ham sandwich, i can decide, with my conscience whether to eat it or not, but it has aleardy been decided for you.

if i want to pray, i can go into my interior room, when i like, face any direction that i like and as long as it is respectfully done, i trust that the father, who looks on in secret, may hear my prayer, but for you it has already been decided, when to pray, how to pray, what position to pray in, the direction that you should face etc etc etc, you do not need to reason on these things.

its the same with learning the Koran, many can cite it word for word, in Arabic, but when you ask them to reason on a text, they are at a loss, why, for the Molvi have taken this upon themselves to do this, and you need years of study to understand the intricacies of Islamic law, thus you are at a loss, and must accept what you have learned from others, and its exactly the same with Judaism and the Rabbis.

it is therefore my firm opinion, that ritualistic forms of worship, whether it Judaism, Islam or forms of Christianity, because of their very nature stifle the free and natural exercise of human conscience, and that is why we have the atrocities that we do, for no person, with a functioning conscience, could possibly intentionally injure another human being.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
my friend it has not to do solely with violence, but the exercise of conscience. this is entirely different from Islam and Judaism, which are essentially based on laws, rituals and regulations , and i hold the view, a hypothesis that i have developed from my own thoughts, that such systems, infact, by their very nature, inhibit the free and natural e ...[text shortened]... person, with a functioning conscience, could possibly intentionally injure another human being.

my friend it has not to do solely with violence, but the exercise of conscience. this is entirely different from Islam and Judaism, which are essentially based on laws, rituals and regulations , and i hold the view, a hypothesis that i have developed from my own thoughts, that such systems, infact, by their very nature, inhibit the free and natural exercise of conscience, is it not the case?

It is not, because Christianity is Judaism plus a biography.

thus if i fancy a nice ham sandwich, i can decide, with my conscience whether to eat it or not, but it has aleardy been decided for you.

But if you fancy to go outside in certain Christian parts of the world, you can get shot. Is it because of the Christianity? No.

if i want to pray, i can go into my interior room, when i like, face any direction that i like and as long as it is respectfully done, i trust that the father, who looks on in secret, may hear my prayer, but for you it has already been decided, when to pray, how to pray, what position to pray in, the direction that you should face etc etc etc, you do not need to reason on these things.

Catholicism has some pretty specific prayer rituals as well. I've never gotten the whole cheap wine and stale wafer thing.

its the same with learning the Koran, many can cite it word for word, in Arabic, but when you ask them to reason on a text, they are at a loss, why, for the Molvi have taken this upon themselves to do this, and you need years of study to understand the intricacies of Islamic law, thus you are at a loss, and must accept what you have learned from others, and its exactly the same with Judaism and the Rabbis.

Have you confirmed this by asking any Middle Eastern Muslims to comprehend a passage of the Holy Qur'an?

it is therefore my firm opinion, that ritualistic forms of worship, whether it Judaism, Islam or forms of Christianity, because of their very nature stifle the free and natural exercise of human conscience, and that is why we have the atrocities that we do, for no person, with a functioning conscience, could possibly intentionally injure another human being.

Injury?!? When did we start talking about injury?? There is no passage in the Holy Qur'an which condones injuring people!

Originally posted by scherzo
my friend it has not to do solely with violence, but the exercise of conscience. this is entirely different from Islam and Judaism, which are essentially based on laws, rituals and regulations , and i hold the view, a hypothesis that i have developed from my own thoughts, that such systems, infact, by their very nature, inhibit the free and natural exerci talking about injury?? There is no passage in the Holy Qur'an which condones injuring people![/b]

It is not, because Christianity is Judaism plus a biography

this is erroneous, Judaism as far as Christians are concerned, became obsolete, for now we had a better and much more substantial system, one that could get us closer to God, because of the exercise of conscience, something that was impossible under Judaism, as in Islam.

umm what has getting shot have to do with eating a ham sandwich?

Catholicism has some pretty specific prayer rituals as well, yes another form of ritualistic worship based on Papal decrees and words of men.

Have you confirmed this by asking any Middle Eastern Muslims to comprehend a passage of the Holy Qur'an?

yes I have spoken to many muslims, mostly Pakistani, Sunni, Shia, Ammeadiah etc etc a few African, one or two middle eastern men, all with the same result, the Koran says this, the Koran says that, does that seems reasonable to you, when asked, they have a blank stare, i dunno, i have never really thought about it - exactly my point.

what about those who leave Islam for another religion, and please Sherzo, i have been through this a zillion times, there are many passages in the Koran which denote violence, for are we to presume that the prophet to whom you think of as an exemplar was himself free from violence, no? well then, i think its best for you that we do not go there.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
It is not, because Christianity is Judaism plus a biography

this is erroneous, Judaism as far as Christians are concerned, became obsolete, for now we had a better and much more substantial system, one that could get us closer to God, because of the exercise of conscience, something that was impossible under Judaism, as in Islam.

umm what has g ...[text shortened]... as himself free from violence, no? well then, i think its best for you that we do not go there.

[The concept that Christianity is Judaism plus a biography] is erroneous, Judaism as far as Christians are concerned, became obsolete, for now we had a better and much more substantial system, one that could get us closer to God, because of the exercise of conscience, something that was impossible under Judaism, as in Islam.

But you still follow the Old Testament, no? As do we.

umm what has getting shot have to do with eating a ham sandwich?

My point exactly. You can't use the fact that Muslims don't eat pork or drink alcohol to imply that Islam is stricter than Christianity. Divorces are much easier for a woman to get in Islam than for a man in Islam or in Christianity at all for either.

Catholicism has some pretty specific prayer rituals as well, yes another form of ritualistic worship based on Papal decrees and words of men.

And yet it birthed Protestantism, which I assume you are a follower of.

yes I have spoken to many muslims, mostly Pakistani, Sunni, Shia, Ammeadiah etc etc a few African, one or two middle eastern men, all with the same result, the Koran says this, the Koran says that, does that seems reasonable to you, when asked, they have a blank stare, i dunno, i have never really thought about it - exactly my point.

1. Pakistanis are not Middle Eastern, and Sunni and Shi'a are not necessarily ethnicities either. Most Shi'a are actually not Arab (the majority are Iranian). It's not a huge issue, but just so you know ...
2. Most Arab Muslims that I talked to are more critical. They read the Holy Qur'an liberally and loosely.

what about those who leave Islam for another religion, and please Sherzo, i have been through this a zillion times, there are many passages in the Koran which denote violence, for are we to presume that the prophet to whom you think of as an exemplar was himself free from violence, no? well then, i think its best for you that we do not go there.

Find them, and I'll show you how they came directly from the Old Testament.

And Islam's the fastest-growing religion in the world, excluding atheism, so there can't be too many converts out of it.

Originally posted by scherzo
[b][The concept that Christianity is Judaism plus a biography] is erroneous, Judaism as far as Christians are concerned, became obsolete, for now we had a better and much more substantial system, one that could get us closer to God, because of the exercise of conscience, something that was impossible under Judaism, as in Islam.

But you still follow th eligion in the world, excluding atheism, so there can't be too many converts out of it.[/b]

But you still follow the Old Testament, no? As do we

No this is quite impossible, for the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, we have no need of a high priest, we do not need to offer up animal sacrifices as commanded in the Law etc etc its is completely and utterly surpased by a 'spiritual', temple, and a new covenant or agreement.

Actually is it not the case, that if you say to your women, i divorce you , i divorce you , i divorce you , then it is annulled. but this was not my point, my point was simply to show, that you , because of your religion, have this choice, already made for you. you do not think about it, you do not reason it out, for it has been decided for you.

i am a follower of no denomination, i do not recognize denominations, for they are divisive and have no basis in scripture. I follow the word of God, which you know as the torat, the zaboor and the anjil!

as for whether it is the fastest growing is neither here nor there, for if you notice, that in times past, it was always a minority that was saved, as in the days of Noah, as in the days of Lot, and as for the persons that i have met, who left it, they were put under sever pressure, threatened in some cases with their life, beaten up, thrown out of their homes and generally disowned by their families, in one instance, a man i met in Pakistan, his parents took him for electric shock treatment, for they thought he was mad, when in fact, he was perfectly sane. now why should that be the case Sherzo? are you prepared to tell the forum, what the Koran says if anyone should leave Islam?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
But you still follow the Old Testament, no? As do we

No this is quite impossible, for the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, we have no need of a high priest, we do not need to offer up animal sacrifices as commanded in the Law etc etc its is completely and utterly surpased by a 'spiritual', temple, and a new covenant or agreement.

Actually is ...[text shortened]... Sherzo? are you prepared to tell the forum, what the Koran says if anyone should leave Islam?

No this is quite impossible, for the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, we have no need of a high priest, we do not need to offer up animal sacrifices as commanded in the Law etc etc its is completely and utterly surpased by a 'spiritual', temple, and a new covenant or agreement.

So, I just want to make this clear. You, as a Christian, do not follow the Old Testament. heh ... My wife follows the old testament, at least, and she's catholic.

Actually is it not the case, that if you say to your women, i divorce you , i divorce you , i divorce you , then it is annulled. but this was not my point, my point was simply to show, that you , because of your religion, have this choice, already made for you. you do not think about it, you do not reason it out, for it has been decided for you.

Your first point is wrong. It was made up by Islamophobic Westerners. It's just a lie. It's easier for a woman to divorce a man in Islam than vica versa.

And there are plenty of us who think about it.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
But you still follow the Old Testament, no? As do we

No this is quite impossible, for the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, we have no need of a high priest, we do not need to offer up animal sacrifices as commanded in the Law etc etc its is completely and utterly surpased by a 'spiritual', temple, and a new covenant or agreement.

Actually is ...[text shortened]... Sherzo? are you prepared to tell the forum, what the Koran says if anyone should leave Islam?

i am a follower of no denomination, i do not recognize denominations, for they are divisive and have no basis in scripture. I follow the word of God, which you know as the torat, the zaboor and the anjil!

That's a hopelessly optimistic position for me, and I wish I had the integrity to take it for my own religion.

as for whether it is the fastest growing is neither here nor there, for if you notice, that in times past, it was always a minority that was saved, as in the days of Noah, as in the days of Lot, and as for the persons that i have met, who left it, they were put under sever pressure, threatened in some cases with their life, beaten up, thrown out of their homes and generally disowned by their families, in one instance, a man i met in Pakistan, his parents took him for electric shock treatment, for they thought he was mad, when in fact, he was perfectly sane. now why should that be the case Sherzo? are you prepared to tell the forum, what the Koran says if anyone should leave Islam?

And in the case of homosexuals? Did God treat them nicely? You can't selectively take some things as proof while ignoring other things that prove the exact opposite. If so, someone could easily endorse the one-party system by saying "it's efficient." God is on the side of who deserves it, usually. In the case of Sodom, and in the case of Job, those were wrong. But note that I said "usually."

I'm not sure what your last sentence means. I am willing to tell to this forum that the Holy Qur'an is the Final Word of ALLAH SWT as dictated to the Prophet Muhammed by the Angel Gabriel.

Originally posted by scherzo
i am a follower of no denomination, i do not recognize denominations, for they are divisive and have no basis in scripture. I follow the word of God, which you know as the torat, the zaboor and the anjil![/b]

That's a hopelessly optimistic position for me, and I wish I had the integrity to take it for my own religion.

as for whether it is the fa s the Final Word of ALLAH SWT as dictated to the Prophet Muhammed by the Angel Gabriel.

you know Scherzo, you have my utmost sympathy, and i do not mean that in any type of derogatory on condescending way, for to be sure, peer pressure in Islam as in other religions is very great indeed.

People i do not think realize this. if you were to leave or decide that you were atheist or something else, you run the risk of alienating your entire family and your entire community, childhood friends etc etc i have seen it happen my friend.

look what these denominations have done in Islam my friend! has anything good come from them? we are Sunni, we are Shia, we are Wahabi, and like Christianity, Islam stands divided, is it not the case?

honestly my friend, the best we can hope for in this life, is that our wife is happy, our children grow up in a safe environment and we see our grandchildren play, we can eat and drink and rejoice and see good for all our hard work. If God sees fit to have mercy upon on because of our good heart, then it is a bonus!

Originally posted by scherzo
I am willing to tell to this forum that the Holy Qur'an is the Final Word of ALLAH SWT as dictated to the Prophet Muhammed by the Angel Gabriel.

Are you willing to tell this forum that laws governing homosexuality should be based on the Koran?

Originally posted by scherzo
[b]No this is quite impossible, for the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, we have no need of a high priest, we do not need to offer up animal sacrifices as commanded in the Law etc etc its is completely and utterly surpased by a 'spiritual', temple, and a new covenant or agreement.

So, I just want to make this clear. You, as a Christian, do not follo ...[text shortened]... o divorce a man in Islam than vica versa.

And there are plenty of us who think about it.[/b]

you should love your wife as your own body, feed her and cherish her!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you should love your wife as your own body, feed her and cherish her!

I couldn't agree more.

Originally posted by generalissimo
I couldn't agree more.

Dude are you also a Muslim? if so, what do you think about these ideas of denomination, Shia, Wahabi, Sunni etc etc. have they not caused untold misery and pain? as in Christendom, with Catholics and Protestants etc etc.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Dude are you also a Muslim? if so, what do you think about these ideas of denomination, Shia, Wahabi, Sunni etc etc. have they not caused untold misery and pain? as in Christendom, with Catholics and Protestants etc etc.

Im a (very liberal) catholic.

And yes, I think these divisions only created more conflict, but at the moment I can't see a solution, there's no way protestants are going to change their ways.