1. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    22 May '09 01:424 edits
    http://www.iheu.org/node/1023

    Of all the existing ideologies and religions, Islam remains the greatest danger to humanity.

    Is this claim true? I believe it is.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_in_the_Middle_East

    There are some [human rights] issues prevalent in most Middle Eastern countries, often due to their common Islamic background.

    Can it be just a coincidence that the most egregious, government-sanctioned human rights violations tend to take place in Islamic countries?
  2. SubscriberFMF
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    22 May '09 01:561 edit
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Can it be just a coincidence that the most egregious, government-sanctioned human rights violations tend to take place in Islamic countries?
    Like Zimbabwe, Indonesia, North Korea, Singapore, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh... I mention each of these for different reasons.
  3. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    22 May '09 02:062 edits
    Originally posted by FMF
    Like Zimbabwe, Indonesia, North Korea, Singapore, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh... I mention each of these for different reasons.
    I wouldn't characterize Zimbabwe, North Korea or Sri Lanka as Islamic countries, and I don't see any common ideology at the root of the human rights violations that take place there. Do you?

    I would say that the other three that you mention are fine examples of human rights violations deriving directly from Islamic ideology.
  4. SubscriberFMF
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    22 May '09 02:301 edit
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    I wouldn't characterize Zimbabwe, North Korea or Sri Lanka as Islamic countries, and I don't see any common ideology at the root of the human rights violations that take place there. Do you?

    I would say that the other three that you mention are fine examples of human rights violations deriving directly from Islamic ideology.
    I would say that two of the most egregious, government-sanctioned human rights violation situations going on right now are in Zimbabwe and North Korea. This rather undermines your contention. Meanwhile in the biggest Muslim country in the world, Indonesia, does not have an egregious, government-sanctioned human rights violation situation. Again this rather undermines your contention. I think, as Scriabin has argued carefully and convincingly here, and at Debates, government-sanctioned human rights violations are all about power and politics, rather than ideology and theology. The latter are merely the context in which the powerful are manipulating people for their own ends. I would contend that you are oversimplifying and missing the point, and - once again - this does rather undermines your contention about "Islamic countries".
  5. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    22 May '09 03:072 edits
    Originally posted by FMF
    I would say that two of the most egregious, government-sanctioned human rights violation situations going on right now are in Zimbabwe and North Korea.
    Perhaps. But in a hundred years time, when these isolated reigns of terror have passed like the Salem Witch Hunts and the Nazi Holocaust, the Muslim countries of the Middle East will still be human rights wastelands, as they have been for centuries on end, and the fact that people fail to indict Islam as the culprit only exacerbates that reality.
  6. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    22 May '09 03:242 edits
    Originally posted by FMF
    Meanwhile in the biggest Muslim country in the world, Indonesia, does not have an egregious, government-sanctioned human rights violation situation.
    http://www.amnesty.org.nz/archived_news/crackdown_on_freedom_of_expression_in_indonesia

    After [the peaceful political protesters'] performance the police, particularly the anti-terrorist unit Detachment-88, detained all 22 of them. They were not granted access to legal representation and held incommunicado.

    They were beaten, forced to crawl on their stomachs over hot asphalt, whipped with an electric cable and had billiard balls forced into their mouths. The police also beat them on the side of the head with rifle butts until their ears bled and fired shots close to their ears. The police threatened them continually with further torture, sometimes at gunpoint, to force them to confess.
  7. SubscriberFMF
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    22 May '09 03:27
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Perhaps. But in a hundred years time, when these isolated reigns of terror have passed like the Salem Witch Hunts and the Nazi Holocaust, the Muslim countries of the Middle East will still be human rights wastelands, as they have been for centuries on end, and the fact that people fail to indict Islam as the culprit only exacerbates that reality.
    So I am exacerbating the problem by pointing out that there is hope for the future (the paradigms provided by places like Indonesia and Turkey) - and also pointing out the true nature of the power politics masquerading as 'Islam'? The Koran says nothing about forbidding girls from attending school, and yet the men who hold power in some Muslim countries forbid it. It's a question of power and control. Not theology. There are more girls attending school than boys in Indonesia. And here you are lamenting the fact that I won't indict Islam.

    Yours is an interesting stance.

    Muslim countries are modernizing. Most Musilms do not live in human rights wastelands.

    I condemn human rights violations. I condemn atrocities.
  8. SubscriberFMF
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    22 May '09 03:31
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    http://www.amnesty.org.nz/archived_news/crackdown_on_freedom_of_expression_in_indonesia

    After [the peaceful political protesters'] performance [b]the police, particularly the anti-terrorist unit Detachment-88, detained all 22 of them. They were not granted access to legal representation and held incommunicado.

    They were beaten, forc ...[text shortened]... them continually with further torture, sometimes at gunpoint, to force them to confess.
    [/b]
    So?

    This is a big country. Flawed. Rough at the edges. Especially when 'separatism' rears its head. Can be a bit rough. But basically this is a gigantic country, with 200,000,000 Muslims, moving forward.

    What else have you got in your little bug jar?

    Your little quote could have been from the USA by the way.
  9. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    22 May '09 03:34
    Originally posted by FMF
    And here you are lamenting the fact that I won't indict Islam.
    Do you think belief in Islam is epistemically justifiable?

    Do you think it is good or bad for humanity when people hold epistemically unjustifiable beliefs?
  10. SubscriberFMF
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    22 May '09 03:37
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    I would say that the other three that you mention [Indonesia, Singapore, Bangladesh] are fine examples of human rights violations deriving directly from Islamic ideology.
    Really? Singapore is only about 10-15% Muslim. It's about 60% Buddhist/Christian/Hindu. And yet you contend that Singapore is a "...fine example of human rights violations deriving directly from Islamic ideology."?

    You seem to be fumbling in your eagerness to express your views.
  11. SubscriberFMF
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    22 May '09 03:391 edit
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    [1] Do you think belief in Islam is epistemically justifiable?

    [2] Do you think it is good or bad for humanity when people hold epistemically unjustifiable beliefs?
    [1] No.

    [2] Personally, I think it's "bad", right across the board.

    What have you got in mind here? You and me advocating intervention in parts of the world where people hold epistemically unjustifiable beliefs, and setting them straight?
  12. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    22 May '09 03:46
    Originally posted by FMF
    Really? Singapore is only about 10-15% Muslim.
    Nonetheless, Singapore still grants authority to Sharia courts to enforce vile Sharia laws that violate human rights.

    http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/002584.html
  13. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    22 May '09 03:46
    Originally posted by FMF


    What have you got in mind here? You and me advocating intervention in parts of the world where people hold epistemically unjustifiable beliefs, and setting them straight?
    Yes.
  14. SubscriberFMF
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    22 May '09 03:56
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Yes.
    Well I'm busy this week. And I start lecturing at UGM in July. So maybe we could make a start in June.

    Shall we start with the Jews, the Christians or with the Muslims?
  15. SubscriberFMF
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    22 May '09 04:01
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Nonetheless, Singapore still grants authority to Sharia courts to enforce vile Sharia laws that violate human rights.

    http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/002584.html
    You found an example from 3 years ago on a blog?

    The Singapore legal code still grants authority to Sharia courts to enforce Sharia settlements and sanctions in cases where both parties consent. Your blogger didn't fancy mentioning that I notice.

    "Singapore's High Court has ruled that Islamic court divorces are recognised by civil courts." Well, it would create a mess if it didn't!
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