Originally posted by moonbusI believe it is a rude and despicable thing to ask a question that implies someones spouse might be unfaithful.
I disagree with you on the intent of the opening post. The hypothetical question is like : how would you feel if you found out your spouse had been cheating on you? That is a legitimate question, even if you know your spouse has not been cheating. Just as it is a legitimate question, what difference it would make to your life if you came to doubt the existen ...[text shortened]... s one's best to invalidate the question.
Which is the answer to viv's question, backhandedly.
Originally posted by moonbusI'll ask this again, if the answer is really that important why ask Christians,
I disagree with you on the intent of the opening post. The hypothetical question is like : how would you feel if you found out your spouse had been cheating on you? That is a legitimate question, even if you know your spouse has not been cheating. Just as it is a legitimate question, what difference it would make to your life if you came to doubt the existen ...[text shortened]... s one's best to invalidate the question.
Which is the answer to viv's question, backhandedly.
go to those that now deny Jesus Christ, who claim He isn't real and never
was in their life time, but they mouthed the words and claimed to know
Him at some point in their lives? You can get the real thing someone who
actually rejected Jesus' life in their lives. There are a few here who said
they used to make the claim but now know it was never real for them.
Originally posted by RJHindsI did not imply that. It is a hypothetical situation.
I believe it is a rude and despicable thing to ask a question that implies someones spouse might be unfaithful.
Let me reformulate: Let's accept it as objective fact that one's spouse is faithful. It is possible for someone to come to believe something based on faulty or incomplete evidence, or a faulty interpretation of evidence. So, it is possible that one spouse comes to form a fear, a suspicion, a jealousy, not grounded in objective fact, or seriously misinterpreting objective fact, and thereby comes to doubt the other spouse's fidelity, although the other spouse is objectively faithful. It is then a legitimate and inoffensive question to ask, whether the marriage would survive. Some would, some would not.
Analogously, take it as objectively given, for the purpose of this comment, that the God of Abraham, as described in the OT, exists. Now assume some person devoutly believes in the God of Abraham, believes He exists. So, objectively speaking, his belief is true (for the purpose of this comment). But suppose his belief is based on faulty evidence and weak proofs. Suppose that someone else (it need not be an atheist) shows him the faultiness of his evidence and the weakness of his putative proofs, so that he comes to doubt his belief. Abraham was tested, Job was tested; it is a legitimate and inoffensive question to ask, what if this person's faith were tested too?
That is what the opening post asks us to consider. How would you feel if the grounds of your belief were removed? Not: is your belief objectively true?
Originally posted by KellyJayCarl Jung described his journey away from the Christian Church in "Memories, Dreams, Reflections", in case anyone is interested.
I'll ask this again, if the answer is really that important why ask Christians,
go to those that now deny Jesus Christ, who claim He isn't real and never
was in their life time, but they mouthed the words and claimed to know
Him at some point in their lives? You can get the real thing someone who
actually rejected Jesus' life in their lives. There are a few here who said
they used to make the claim but now know it was never real for them.
Originally posted by LemonJelloSorry, I see no traction for you here.I'm trying to give you a glimpse of where we Christians are coming from on this issue.
The "issue" of a hypothetical question? Now you're giving me a good chuckle. It's quaint and all that you would consider yourself a Lorax of sorts for Christians, but I would certainly hope a lot of them would take issue with your presuming to speak ...[text shortened]... an. Are you going to let this shrieking harpy represent your interests on "this issue"? Yikes.
The faith of some is already an ephemeral thing. Anything that bolsters anyone's faith is a good thing, anything that denigrates or erodes that faith is a bad thing, mmmm, k?
What you atheists are doing here is attacking our faith from another angle, is all. To me, it's "same stuff, different day". If you want to plant a seed of doubt, this is a textbook example of how this is done. Where did you guys get this, anyways, some book by Dawkins?
Granted, you're probably not going to fool many right away this way, and as I see in this thread, I'm proud of my Christian brothers for not submitting to this heinous attack on their faith. But this kind of damage is insidious and progressive. It's diabolical simply because it seems to be a "harmless thought exercise" on top. Inside, this kind of doubt can eat away at someone with faith issues. I just hope none of the Christians here eventually succumb to the damage caused by this kind of thinking, because then you'll have their souls to pay for, too.
What's "quaint and all" is that you really think we're too stupid to see this for what it is, and because I've uncovered the damage this can cause a Christian of weak faith (and there does seem to be a few here), I'm sure I'll get attacked for being a "whack job" or whatever. If I can bolster the faith of one Christian to see this for what it is, then you can call me every name in the book, and it won't matter to me one iota.
Originally posted by moonbusWhen I was studying Psychology, it hit me early on that I would probably end up a Jungian Psychologist if I finished my work. This is a good bio of Jung, controversial as it was at the time.
Carl Jung described his journey away from the Christian Church in "Memories, Dreams, Reflections", in case anyone is interested.
Originally posted by moonbusAs I said, some atheists here have responded in a knee-jerk fashion in a similar way, that we are all just "too scared" to give up our "indoctrination".
I disagree with you on the intent of the opening post. The hypothetical question is like : how would you feel if you found out your spouse had been cheating on you? That is a legitimate question, even if you know your spouse has not been cheating. Just as it is a legitimate question, what difference it would make to your life if you came to doubt the existen ...[text shortened]... s one's best to invalidate the question.
Which is the answer to viv's question, backhandedly.
But it goes way, way beyond that. None of you can see just how important God is to us, even though some here have tried to provide this insight, it's just been trampled in the rush to label us as somehow "psychologically damaged" if we "can't" (or even don't want to) answer the "hypothetical". (The fact remains that the question is NOT hypothetical to any of the atheists posing the question. They ALL believe God is not real. They just want another angle, another pathway, to insert that thought into our subconscious. Sorry, this won't work, either.)
Originally posted by moonbusWhy does this remind me of something?
I did not imply that. It is a hypothetical situation.
Let me reformulate: Let's accept it as objective fact that one's spouse is faithful. It is possible for someone to come to believe something based on faulty or incomplete evidence, or a faulty interpretation of evidence. So, it is possible that one spouse comes to form a fear, a suspicion, a jealousy, ...[text shortened]... would you feel if the grounds of your belief were removed? Not: is your belief objectively true?
"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." -- Genesis 3:1-6, KJV
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Originally posted by Suzianne"If God didn't exist, what possible difference would it make whether or not people put their faith in Him?" -FreakyKBH
Sorry, I see no traction for you here.
The faith of some is already an ephemeral thing. Anything that bolsters anyone's faith is a good thing, anything that denigrates or erodes that faith is a bad thing, mmmm, k?
What you atheists are doing here is attacking our faith from another angle, is all. To me, it's "same stuff, different day". If you want to ...[text shortened]... his for what it is, then you can call me every name in the book, and it won't matter to me one iota.
Does anyone on this spirituality forum take issue with those who may believe in a Mythical Unicorn or Spaghetti Monster?
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Originally posted by SuzianneParanoid much? You're so blinded by bigotry that you just cannot help reading sinister intentions and motivations into anything any atheist does or says. It's been spiraling out of control for a while, and it's quite pathetic at this point. I feel sorry for you on this count.
Sorry, I see no traction for you here.
The faith of some is already an ephemeral thing. Anything that bolsters anyone's faith is a good thing, anything that denigrates or erodes that faith is a bad thing, mmmm, k?
What you atheists are doing here is attacking our faith from another angle, is all. To me, it's "same stuff, different day". If you want ...[text shortened]... for what it is, then you can call me every name in the book, and it won't matter to me one iota.
You also have an atrocious understanding of how things like belief, evidence, doubt, faith, etc fit together. If one had intention of introducing doubt, he or she would typically be well-advised to just present countervailing evidential considerations, not open-ended hypothetical questions. Of course, that is generally predicated on the assumption that one's interlocutor is reasonably amenable to things like evidence and the like in whatever area of discourse is at issue.... That gets me back to the good news here: the idea that you could pass as a Lorax for other Christians on "this issue" is laughable. I'm happy to report that I know lots of Christians, and theists generally, who are not bigoted towards others of different philosophical bent; are epistemically responsible in their inquiries of this nature; and who actually understand the point of a hypothetical.
Unfortunately for you and sonship and the like, your responses to a hypothetical can be very revealing, even if the point and underlying intentions of the initial offering are completely lost on you. By all means, teach us more about the underlying motivations of atheists everywhere and keep protecting your fellow Christians from these dastardly and "heinous" attacks. All you will accomplish is revealing more about yourself, and it isn't pretty.
Originally posted by LemonJelloYou are a real jerk here in my opinion, you get told you are being offensive
Paranoid much? You're so blinded by bigotry that you just cannot help reading sinister intentions and motivations into anything any atheist does or says. It's been spiraling out of control for a while, and it's quite pathetic at this point. I feel sorry for you on this count.
You also have an atrocious understanding of how things like belief, eviden ...[text shortened]... einous" attacks. All you will accomplish is revealing more about yourself, and it isn't pretty.
so your response is start with the calling people bigots. Lost a lot of respect
I used to have for you, but after watching you here, I doubt you care.
Originally posted by vivifyFor those that have a personal relationship with the creator how would they stop believing? They know that they would be living in D-Nile
If it could actually be proven that the Christian god doesn't exist, how would that change your life, if you're a Christian? Is this something any of you here have given real thought to?
Assume for this thread that this hypothetical really happened; if (somehow) proof was given that even Christians here HAD to admit that God doesn't exist, here are my que ...[text shortened]... d appreciate thoughts from Christians (or other theists with the question applied to their god).