Originally posted by @tom-wolseyTake the red pill!
By this I figure you're provoking a response that would drag me into battle vs. the other 2 or 3 "live sinless and do enough works to maintain your salvation" proponents. I've already said everything I have to say on that.
Take the red pill!
Originally posted by @thinkofoneSorry, dancing around, how about show me the errors I've made when addressing this
Tell you what. You kept dancing around the following passage without providing an alternative reading that fully takes Jesus' words quoted in the passage into account. Instead you kept reciting your high-level beliefs. As someone once said, "God is in the details". So provide a detailed analysis. Maybe it'll help to move things forward.
Luke 13
23A ...[text shortened]... and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.
passage. You are large on charges, short on specifics when it comes to the errors I have
been making. It shouldn't be difficult I basically tell you what I think with scripture to back
up my words.
Originally posted by @eladarYou pushed it too far with "not in the bible." The biblical support for assured salvation is a highly contested debate. I believe it has biblical support and I respect your belief that it doesn't.
As long as you are willing to admit that this belief of yours is not actually in the Bible and that it is just a feeling, I am cool with that.
Originally posted by @rajk999I really don't care what you think my chances are speaking to someone who isn't
One of your problems why you cannot carry on a bible discussion with a non-church person is that you continue to use church jargon which is basically meaningless and often nonsensical
- be right with God
- relationship with Christ
- works based salvation
The bible has no such expressions.
Jesus said live righteously and you will enter the kingdom ...[text shortened]... elationship, which you do not explain properly.
You are not a bible man. You are a church man
schooled in scripture or someone not churched. I didn't get saved until I was 25 years
old, didn't go to church at all before that, and didn't know anyone who did. I understand
what someone who doesn't know the "Jargon" sees and understands.
The Bible has truth in it and expressions that can be described without using the specific
words, from that you seem to think the truths of those doctrines are not in scripture just
because those exact words are not used to described the points/thoughts/doctrine.
Yes, Jesus said live righteously, and He told us how, unlike your mysterious mystery
works, which you cannot describe, nor can talk about how many are required. I've shared
with you several scripture on both living righteously, and doing the works God accepts,
but you ignore them. I've even shared where in scripture that if you are not doing these
things you cannot please God, and you will not belong to Him.
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Originally posted by @kellyjayYou've avoided directly addressing the words spoken by Jesus in Luke 13:23-28. And you're continuing to do so. That's just a fact. Whether you like it or not, it is a part of the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.
Sorry, dancing around, how about show me the errors I've made when addressing this
passage. You are large on charges, short on specifics when it comes to the errors I have
been making. It shouldn't be difficult I basically tell you what I think with scripture to back
up my words.
To avoid doing this you recite your high-level beliefs. Merely reciting your high-level beliefs only serves to demonstrate that you believe in a different gospel. If the gospel you believe in were the same as the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry, you'd have no problem with providing a detailed analysis with an alternative reading that fully takes Jesus' words quoted in the passage into account. But you refuse.
Go ahead KellyJay. Show in detail how Luke 13:23-28 is consistent with the gospel you espouse.
Originally posted by @kellyjayMysterious works???
I really don't care what you think my chances are speaking to someone who isn't
schooled in scripture or someone not churched. I didn't get saved until I was 25 years
old, didn't go to church at all before that, and didn't know anyone who did. I understand
what someone who doesn't know the "Jargon" sees and understands.
The Bible has truth in it and ...[text shortened]... e that if you are not doing these
things you cannot please God, and you will not belong to Him.
You are far from Christ.
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Originally posted by @rajk999Your doctrine, which is not the same thing as Christ. Can you describe the good works
Mysterious works???
You are far from Christ.
that God is looking for, can you tell everyone how many that they are going to have had
to do in order to please God? You have been preaching this for a long time, details
please, get specific if you can.
Originally posted by @kellyjayA lost soul you are. The atheists will enter the Kingdom of God before you mouth worshipers
Your doctrine, which is not the same thing as Christ. Can you describe the good works
that God is looking for, can you tell everyone how many that they are going to have had
to do in order to please God? You have been preaching this for a long time, details
please, get specific if you can.
Originally posted by @thinkofoneI'm avoiding nothing, you have claimed what I have already said does not agree with
You've avoided directly addressing the words spoken by Jesus in Luke 13:23-28. And you're continuing to do so. That's just a fact. Whether you like it or not, it is a part of the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.
To avoid doing this you recite your high-level beliefs. Reciting your high-level beliefs only serves to demonstrate that you be ...[text shortened]... native reading that fully takes Jesus' words quoted in the passage into account. But you refuse.
Jesus and I have asked you to provide details on that. So you come up with yet
ANOTHER thing to talk about without addressing what we have already covered.
That makes this new scripture from you an excuse to NOT back up your claims by trying
bring up something else! So if you will, please try to not come with another excuse to
not back up your claims, and just address what we have already covered, there are
pages of text where you said what I was saying was going against Jesus. No need to
add yet another scripture when we have pages of text already, and you made these
claims before this passage was brought up, so back up your claims please with the text
that was filled with the claims you have against me.
Originally posted by @tom-wolseyI asked for book and verse for self proclaimed salvation. You could not provide it because it is not there.
You pushed it too far with "not in the bible." The biblical support for assured salvation is a highly contested debate. I believe it has biblical support and I respect your belief that it doesn't.
Originally posted by @rajk999Really, you have a scripture in the Bible that says, "Atheist will enter the Kingdom of God"
A lost soul you are. The atheists will enter the Kingdom of God before you mouth worshipers
what book, chapter, and verse can I find that?
Originally posted by @kellyjayGoats dont know what good works are about. You are one. Ask any atheist about what Jesus means by good works.
Really, you have a scripture in the Bible that says, "Atheist will enter the Kingdom of God"
what book, chapter, and verse can I find that?
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Originally posted by @kellyjaySo you come up with yet ANOTHER thing to talk about...No need to add yet another scripture...
I'm avoiding nothing, you have claimed what I have already said does not agree with
Jesus and I have asked you to provide details on that. So you come up with yet
ANOTHER thing to talk about without addressing what we have already covered.
That makes this new scripture from you an excuse to NOT back up your claims by trying
bring up something else! S ...[text shortened]... o back up your claims please with the text
that was filled with the claims you have against me.
Seriously? It's not "yet ANOTHER thing to talk about " It's not "yet another scripture". It's extremely disingenuous for you to claim otherwise.
I first brought Luke 13:23-28 up as early as page 7:
https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/spirituality/if-osas-is-in-the-bible.177340/page-7#post_3902926
I provided a detailed analysis on page 13:
https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/spirituality/if-osas-is-in-the-bible.177340/page-13#post_3903573
Here we are on page 20!
Why are you making such blatantly false assertions?