If you met God....

Thank you Jawmill, that again is a very clear answer.

Am I correct that you have distanced yourself from the thought that god is almighty? It would definately look that way, as you think that it was possible for someone to stand up against god in the first place. If god were almighty you indeed couldn't explain the fact that there was that seed of evil inplanted upon the world before someone/something rebelled against god.

I am glad you're thinking that god isn't almighty, with this you atleast openly say that the bible is wrong at a very important point. And if the bible is wrong in such an important point, then I hope you will come to sense that there could be (and probably will be) more faults in the bible itself.

I only need a sign of god saying to menkind to please help him combat against evil, and I even gladly forfeit eternity to help him combat that (now, this is more a view expressed by Zoroastrianism than christianity). If god isn't almighty, he'll need all the help he can get. But at the moment we only have 1 piece of evidence and that is the bible. How do you know for sure that in 2000 years that fallen angel didn't change the word of god or some of his helpers?

Now, it would be very very easy for god to prove he excists. He only needs to help those who pray to him when they need help. If god were to do this, he would get the world up and running again in no time at all. In the end he could still judge people: those who just ask when they are in need don't truely believe, and those who give their life to him can be trusted again to paradise. Instead, god rather have you praising him every time, while doing nothing to stop the suffering for those true believers. And still, if you didn't praise him during your life, no salvation for you and you can burn for ever. Even though I am against anything that helped the world fall apart and would do anything for him as long as he shows he excists, I can burn forever. God giveth and taketh, but I think he mainly takes and rarely gives back.

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Thank you Jawmill, that again is a very clear answer.
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You're welcome RUINeverything

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Am I correct that you have distanced yourself from the thought that god is almighty?
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No. I think you're incorrect in that assumption.

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It would definately look that way, as you think that it was possible for someone to stand up against god in the first place. If god were almighty you indeed couldn't explain the fact that there was that seed of evil inplanted upon the world before someone/something rebelled against god.
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I'm not sure I follow you. Man was created neutral between God as a source of life and Satan as a source of independence and revolt. Whatever God is Satan in his rebellion had to become the opposite.

God is truth. Satan had to become the lie.
God is love. Satan had to become the rage.
God is peace. Satan had to become the unrest.
God is eternal life. Satan had to become the death.

When the chief and highest creature rebelled against God he had to become the opposite. Satan is the real "Dark Side". When man was created this evil and pernicious being was in the universe lurking to preemptively attack the new creature man.

As a result of man being deceived and joining the opposition party the world fell.


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I am glad you're thinking that god isn't almighty, with this you atleast openly say that the bible is wrong at a very important point.
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Satan's rebellion does not prove that God is not almighty. So I don't know why your glad.

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And if the bible is wrong in such an important point, then I hope you will come to sense that there could be (and probably will be) more faults in the bible itself.
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Since your initial premise is wrong, any further reasoning along that line needs no reply. Your initial assumption of what I believe is not right.

God allowing the anointed arch-angel to rebel if he wants to does not demonstrate that God is not mighty or almighty.

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I only need a sign of god saying to menkind to please help him combat against evil, and I even gladly forfeit eternity to help him combat that (now, this is more a view expressed by Zoroastrianism than christianity).
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His wanting to coordinate with man in the destruction of His enemy is not because He cannot unilaterally do so Himself. It brings more glory to Him if ANOTHER creature agrees with God to oppose the rebel CREATURE.

It is more of a vindication to God that one creature come into harmony and agree that the rebel creature should be put down.

Therefore God, SATAN, and Man form a triangle. The destiny of the universe depends on the way man turns to tip the triangle in one way towards God or the other way towards Satan. I think of it more this way. So we have eventually man and God in coordination and cooperation to put down the rebel creature Satan.

God will not act unilaterally in this matter. To deal with creature He waits for the Amen and cooperation of the other creature. It is troublesome. But I think it is indeed very wise. Think of the eternal lessons that it teaches.

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If god isn't almighty, he'll need all the help he can get.
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Again, if that is a pet argument that you wish to cling to, go ahead. Just don't try to assign it to me.

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But at the moment we only have 1 piece of evidence and that is the bible. How do you know for sure that in 2000 years that fallen angel didn't change the word of god or some of his helpers?
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What he did do was fill the earth with a plethora [spelling?] of other speakings which are similar. That's why you have people on this forum insisting that there is someting to be noted in the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Mary or the Gospel of Peter or any number of other psuedo canical writings. This is the confusion which he caused.

He attacked the church from without at first, trying to torture and burn the faith to death. But the blood of the martyrs was the seed of the saints. Then he changed his tactic and tried to mix the church with the world. He let the world welcome the church instead of oppose her.

This caused far greater confusion. But the gates of Hades cannot prevail against the builded church. Incidently, if God were indeed NOT almighty, then I think the Christian gospel should have been wiped out centries ago.

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Now, it would be very very easy for god to prove he excists. He only needs to help those who pray to him when they need help.
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Who says He does not? Of course your idea of "help" may not be the same in all cases as God's idea of help.

His idea of help may not be just to solve your problem. It is rather to put His Spirit into your heart. So some problems drive us to God. As someone said "The only way out is up'

Think of a boat in a river met by the obstacle of a rock. Our concept is that God would remove the rock from out of the way. God's way is often to simply raise the level of the water.

Our life is troubled. Our concept may be for God to "help" us by removing the trouble. God's way is often to add more life, and more life, and more life until the life we have overcomes the trouble.

This is the principle of resurrection life. God imparts a divine life into the praying one which is resurrection and indistructible. His "help" is frequently to impart and dispense Himself into the one crying out for assistence.

Eventually, we may learn this lesson. And instead of praying for God to remove this or that problem, we ask God to give us more of Himself in Christ to be our overcoming life - a life that can take any situation and pass through all kinds of opposition.


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If god were to do this, he would get the world up and running again in no time at all.
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That is your style. Suppose He wants to take time.

If God were to get the world up and running in no time at all, you might not have time to repent and be saved. You might as a result be immediately sent to eternal damnation.

So God is taking some time, for one reason, because He desires all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth.

Don't assume that if God performed one final fix this evening that it would fair well for you necessarily. What if you are a part of the problem? Don't you want time to be reconciled to God yourself?

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In the end he could still judge people: those who just ask when they are in need don't truely believe, and those who give their life to him can be trusted again to paradise.
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I don't think you or I can improve on the methods of God. I think what we can do is obey and cooperate with the plan that He has.

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Instead, god rather have you praising him every time, while doing nothing to stop the suffering for those true believers.
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I think in the final judgment God wants to be able to point to many people who through His supporting grace overcame all kinds of difficulties. That way, perhaps when someone makes an excuse that they did not believe in Him because of this or that terrible circumstance, He can point to others in worse circumstances who believed and obeyed.

Somehow every mouth will be shut. No one will be able to say that God was not just. No one who perishes will think that it is unjust of God to render to them the destiny that is theirs.

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And still, if you didn't praise him during your life, no salvation for you and you can burn for ever.
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Where do you see that in Scripture?

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Even though I am against anything that helped the world fall apart and would do anything for him as long as he shows he excists, I can burn forever. God giveth and taketh, but I think he mainly takes and rarely gives back.
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I don't see it that way at all. My personal experience has been that I can NEVER outgive God.

In spite of the troubles you have had in life, God has afored you
many days of happiness even though He was the farthest thing from your mind.

Have you ever looked back after one year and thanked God for the many blessings that you did enjoy?

Sure we do have problems. But he has spared you from some, Did you thank Him? Suppose you had an infection in your genitals tonight. Do you know how painful it would be to go to the bathroom. Have you ever stopped and thanked God after urinating that at least He has exempted you from the pain of an infection in your urinal glands?

Did you stop and thank God after a year for the use of your sound mind? YOu could have been born mentally retarded you know? Some are. Did you thank God for giving you a sound enough mind with an ability to form rational arguments by which you can fight against Him?

Did you eat tonight? Did you thank God that at least you were spared from the hunger that some others endure?

You could have had cancer in your brain or prostate. Did you ever think to turn around one evening and say "Well God, some things I don't like or understand about you. But at least I thank you that you have spared me from having cancer. Thank you God."

...

First of, if you're against something that I take as a premise: just say so, you don't have to repeat it a few times for me to understand : ). I said I wasn't sure that you actually believed this.

Ok, you still believe god is allmighty. If he is, then he made Satan, approves of Satan and could banish Satan at any point and immediately. Atleast he knew what Satan would be doing later. If god is almight, he is also responsible for all the evil in the world.
If Satan + menkind = mightier than god (able to rebel against god), then god is per definition not allmighty.

On to the other point: should I be so enormously ego-centric only to care about my own sufferings? I am talking in a much broader meaning my friend. I suffer when I see/know the millions of people who suffer from aids every day in Africa. Yes, I should thank god on my bare knees that I am excempt (spelling?) from that, but why should someone else suffer it??

That is the basic problem I have with god: if he's allmighty, he allows there to be evil in the world; if he is just, how can you explain that there is evil in the world? If god isn't allmighty, what is mightier than god and what more is there wrong in the bible; if god isn't just, why should I want to believe in him?

You ask once 'where do you see that in the Scripture', answer to that would be where Jesus says to his 11 remaining disciples on the mountain of Olives (?) what is needed for salvation, just before he ascends to heaven. After re-reading, there isn't anything about praising him every day, only to be baptized and believe.

I don't have any more time to elaborate, I'll save some for later.

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Ok, you still believe god is allmighty. If he is, then he made Satan, approves of Satan and could banish Satan at any point and immediately.
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It is obvious that God does not "approve" of Satan.

God did make a very intelligent creature who had some high position of authority in His government. He was called the Day Star (Latin says Lucifer).

If you are interested in what we do know about "Lucifer" becomming Satan, the Advasary against God I would recommend a few books which deal well with the subject:

"Earth's Earliest Ages" by G H Pember Roughly the first HALF of the book is an excellent exposition on the subject.

"The Invisible War" by Donald Barnhouse Roughly the first third of the book is an excellent theological discussion of the history of the fall of the Day Star into Satan the Devil.

See if you can find online The Life Study of Genesis" by Witness Lee. The first four or so messages are excellent on the subject of the pre-Adamic rebellion of Satan.

"The Mystery of Creation" by Watchman Nee. A short read the first portion of deals well with the subject of how Satan came into being.

It is too much for me to elaborate.

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Atleast he knew what Satan would be doing later. If god is almight, he is also responsible for all the evil in the world.
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Philosophically, you may have an argument that the evil use of some being's free will is ultimately the fault of the Creator.

All the terrible things which happened to Job he attributed to God. So even the Bible itself made such an argument before you did.

You won't get much more than a shrug from me on this one. I mean, God created a being with a will to choose. As a result of the wrong chose terrible things happened. That is all therefore God's fault for not creating creatures with no free will.

Well, with that backround He accomplishes His eternal purpose. I think I am more impressed with that.

I have to go now too.


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If Satan + menkind = mightier than god (able to rebel against god), then god is per definition not allmighty.
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I think I already addressed this. And you don't like repetition. So I won't rehash my answer.

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On to the other point: should I be so enormously ego-centric only to care about my own sufferings? I am talking in a much broader meaning my friend.
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Another false leap to a false conclusion.

Nothing I said implied that you cared ONLY for yourself. Indeed, the sense of such fortune may inspire you to be more considerate of others.

Please don't concoct arguments to put into my mouth.

Now I really have to talk to you latter.

Be Thankful !