Originally posted by KellyJayThe point is that if your god knows our actions beforehand, then from his perspective choosing different creations is choosing different deterministic time paths. Of course, we are still making choices, but from your god's view these choices are not unknowns.
We are the ones incharge of our actions, what and how God knows
isn't any concern if I'm totally in control of what I do or do not do.
Kelly
Originally posted by telerionActually, we can not do anything without God's grace. Even cooperating with His grace is a grace.
The point is that if your god knows our actions beforehand, then from his perspective choosing different creations is choosing different deterministic time paths. Of course, we are still making choices, but from your god's view these choices are not unknowns.
We all are given sufficient grace to save our souls, but some are given efficacious grace which draws them with more force.
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Originally posted by telerionSo if we are making our choices, what does it matter what God knows?
The point is that if your god knows our actions beforehand, then from his perspective choosing different creations is choosing different deterministic time paths. Of course, we are still making choices, but from your god's view these choices are not unknowns.
If I'm the one making them, I'm the one making them and God
just knows, if I'm not the one making them, than we are not talking
about choice any more, but God pulling the strings and us doing the
dance we are programmed to do, and getting judged for God's
choices not ours. It is what it is, if we are making the choices we
should be held accountable for them. Crying about God being God
does not free us from being held accountable for the choices we make.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayIt IS just a dance. If God knows beforehand what you'll do, and by definition He must, and he chooses to create you that way and no other, then he has by definition choosen to make you to make the choices you'll make.
So if we are making our choices, what does it matter what God knows?
If I'm the one making them, I'm the one making them and God
just knows, if I'm not the one making them, than we are not talking
about choice any more, but God pulling the strings and us doing the
dance we are programmed to do, and getting judged for God's
choices not ours. It is what ...[text shortened]... God being God
does not free us from being held accountable for the choices we make.
Kelly
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Originally posted by KellyJayKJ, I'm not claiming here that omniscience trumps free will. In fact, you are now arguing the same thing I did in defense of the alternative universe earlier!
So if we are making our choices, what does it matter what God knows?
If I'm the one making them, I'm the one making them and God
just knows, if I'm not the one making them, than we are not talking
about choice any more, but God pulling the strings and us doing the
dance we are programmed to do, and getting judged for God's
choices not ours. It is what ...[text shortened]... God being God
does not free us from being held accountable for the choices we make.
Kelly
Can you understand why I would find it frustrating that you first argue that your god cannot create people who all choose freely to serve him because his knowing they would all serve him violates their free will, and now, when you mistake my point, argue the opposite that as long as some one is making the choice then their will is free
I agree with you. If you have the choice, your will is free. So why did your god not create the world where everyone that exists chooses him?
Originally posted by telerionSo if you make them, it is you making them as long as God is not
The point is that if your god knows our actions beforehand, then from his perspective choosing different creations is choosing different deterministic time paths. Of course, we are still making choices, but from your god's view these choices are not unknowns.
making you do anything and the playing field is level, it is what it is,
you make the choices and God judges.
Kelly
Originally posted by telerionRobots are robots, when one has the will and freedom to act the
KJ, I'm not claiming here that omniscience trumps free will. In fact, you are now arguing the same thing I did in defense of the alternative universe earlier!
Can you understand why I would find it frustrating that you first argue that your god cannot create people who all choose freely to serve him because his knowing they would all serve him violates ...[text shortened]... will is free. So why did your god not create the world where everyone that exists chooses him?
choices have to real. Why did everyone make the choices they
did, don't know. Why did the universe even allow for bad choices,
I would imagine (my guess) is it would be like why we put metals
under huge amounts of heat to burn out the impurities before we
use them to build, or why we stress parts like CPU under heat and
voltages to make sure they do what they should before we sell them.
We make sure what we believe is true, is as best we can, and under
these conditions what is real and true will be tested. This again is
my opinion, I could be way off here.
Kelly
Originally posted by scottishinnzWhich is why I said, if we have a choice and we make it is it one thing,
It IS just a dance. If God knows beforehand what you'll do, and by definition He must, and he chooses to create you that way and no other, then he has by definition choosen to make you to make the choices you'll make.
if we don't that is another.
Kelly