in your face god

there is no indication that there is any other source for their behavior other than their dna and upbringing. if there is such a thing as 'sin' and 'good and evil' that exist beyond our minds......then where and how do they effect us? do you have any example??

Are you saying that scientist can isolate the DNA of, let us say, a baby. Then by careful chemical analysis they can predict what of a 100 million million choices they will make concerning millions of decisions of behavior ?

Are you saying that you believe socialogical knowledge plus DNA analysis is going in the direction of being able to map out every decision a person will make in life ?

I know we are not at the level of knowledge. I don't believe that we are arriving at that kind of mechanistic determinism of human choices.

I would say some insight is derived from some study of these things.
The leap from "some insight" into full fledged expectation that we can "map" what a man will DO throughout his 70 or so years of living, is not with me.

Now from my personal spiritual experience, I believe that some things are kind of injected somehow into my thoughts like an arrow. There are times when I refuse to be responsible for certain thoughts.

I said some times. I did not say all the time. In other words, sometimes I take responsibility for something that I thought to do. It originated from me. At other times I have a thought. I do not believe that the thought originated with me. And I am guarded as to how much I take responsibility.

There is a saying among Christians - "You can not stop a bird from flying over your head. But you can stop it from making a nest in your hair."

Having said that I would hasten to add. Sometimes, with thoughts that I feel are injected into my thought life from some source, I furnished some "ground". I am responsible that I furnished some ground upon which something had the vantage point to exploit my thought life.

My responsibility is to take away that ground.

This could be compared to not locking a door or a window in a house. Or better still part of the wall is broken down. A stranger may wander into the house until you patch up that wall and seal it as it is proper to do so.

This is how I surmise that there are spiritual forces. This is not a science though.

If you spend your time absorbing pornography in heavy dosages and one day a sudden flash of a thought enters for you to rape someone, that could be something injected into your thought life because in that area of your thinking you have furnished some ground upon which evil spiritual forces could launch attack.

I have to leave now.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
and who decided the blame belonged to man................god.

Rightfully so.

I still don't see a cause for blame-placing, unless it's just a defense for narcissism and self-aggrandizement.

Originally posted by sonship

there is no indication that there is any other source for their behavior other than their dna and upbringing. if there is such a thing as 'sin' and 'good and evil' that exist beyond our minds......then where and how do they effect us? do you have any example??

Are you saying that scientist can isolate the DNA of, let us say, a baby. Then ...[text shortened]... und upon which evil spiritual forces could launch attack.

I have to leave now.

Are you saying that scientist can isolate the DNA of, let us say, a baby. Then by careful chemical analysis they can predict what of a 100 million million choices they will make concerning millions of decisions of behavior ?


no, thats not what i said. my reference to dna is in relation to our ability to look at genetics, we can predict whos is going to get certain illnesses/sufferings because of their genes. so we can cross off a bunch of sufferings from the 'comes from god list' because we know they come from faulty genetics passed on through generations.
we can cross off another huge bunch of sufferings of the god list because sociologists, statisticians and so on can figure out what we are likely to do to a highly accurate level based on our upbringing and environment.

non of this means they can predict every little thing a person does. but we can predict their likely hood to become violent, take drugs, get certain illnesses, we can predict their age of death and so on.

if we can make these prediction without knowing the magical god elements of the equations then those element have no effect on the outcome.

so how does good,evil and sin effect us?? how does it do it and in what ways can we see it?

Originally posted by Suzianne
Rightfully so.

I still don't see a cause for blame-placing, unless it's just a defense for narcissism and self-aggrandizement.

i dont really follow your thinking, blaming = narcissism???

Originally posted by stellspalfie
i dont really follow your thinking, blaming = narcissism???

Who is it that blames others?

He who believes he does no wrong.

He who believes in his own awesomeness.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b]Are you saying that scientist can isolate the DNA of, let us say, a baby. Then by careful chemical analysis they can predict what of a 100 million million choices they will make concerning millions of decisions of behavior ?


no, thats not what i said. my reference to dna is in relation to our ability to look at genetics, we can predict whos ...[text shortened]...

so how does good,evil and sin effect us?? how does it do it and in what ways can we see it?[/b]

You see the effects of our sin in the death of the body and the pain of childbirth, birth defects, the lack of nutrition in our food, and in sickness and disease.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Who is it that blames others?

He who believes he does no wrong.

He who believes in his own awesomeness.

not really. im pretty sure its possible to attribute blame to an individual whilst also accepting you are not awesome and do no wrong -

i blamed my son for hiding vegetables from his dinner around the house a few days back. i wasnt full of my own self grandeur.

i can blame god for sin as he created all the variables in the universe, he is there for ultimately responsible.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You see the effects of our sin in the death of the body and the pain of childbirth, birth defects, the lack of nutrition in our food, and in sickness and disease.

give me proof that sin causes these things.

no, thats not what i said. my reference to dna is in relation to our ability to look at genetics, we can predict whos is going to get certain illnesses/sufferings because of their genes.

That could be very helpful.
But how far do you expect to take that ?

It sounds like a kind of fortune telling.
I think the palm readers, cranium readers, astrologers, tea leaf readers, bone readers have all had a similar hope. Hey, many of them thought of themselves as doing a science too.

I am not trying to be sarcastic here. I am pointing out that there is nothing much new under the sun really.

so we can cross off a bunch of sufferings from the 'comes from god list' because we know they come from faulty genetics passed on through generations.

The possibilties of ailments that could conceivably happen, I think, are too numnerous to cross off in such a nifty way.

Your "comes from god list" sounds a bit contemptful.

If I jump out of the window of a five story building I will fall and suffer. Perhaps I'll be killed. Regardless how spiritual I am, the law of gravity will take over and I probably will hit the ground too hard - and suffer.

Now you may say "That is from the suffering from God list." Okay. It is a suffering because of the laws of physics which a creating ultimate Authority ordained how things should work.

This is a suffering because of my foolish violation of laws governing how the universe will be. And many many other things could cause suffering if similarly violated.

You may call that "suffering from God list." It could be "suffering because of having inadaquate regard for authority" on our part.

Some of the left over sufferings are due to violation of ordinances that govern our world.

we can cross off another huge bunch of sufferings of the god list because sociologists, statisticians and so on can figure out what we are likely to do to a highly accurate level based on our upbringing and environment.

Why don't you reverse your attitude some time and think of how many things you could conceivably be thankful to God for?

Look back over the last 365 days of your life. You couldn't imagine a list of fortunes by which you possibly could say thanks to God for ?

It seems you are only interested in a list of negative things as far as God is concerned.

non of this means they can predict every little thing a person does. but we can predict their likely hood to become violent, take drugs, get certain illnesses, we can predict their age of death and so on.

if we can make these prediction without knowing the magical god elements of the equations then those element have no effect on the outcome.

so how does good,evil and sin effect us?? how does it do it and in what ways can we see it?

Sounds like pretty empty and pretensious stuff from one really hell bent on only thinking like a spoiled brat.

I have had some misfortunes in life like everyone else.
I find it benefitial to make a God list of the few thousands of things for which I could conceivably turn around and say -

"Lord God, I just want to stop a minute and say - Thank You."

I think its twisted to only think of God in terms of propogating a list of sufferings.

Originally posted by sonship

no, thats not what i said. my reference to dna is in relation to our ability to look at genetics, we can predict whos is going to get certain illnesses/sufferings because of their genes.

That could be very helpful.
But how far do you expect to take that ?

It sounds like a kind of fortune telling.
I think the palm ...[text shortened]... nk its twisted to only think of God in terms of propogating a list of sufferings.

That could be very helpful.
But how far do you expect to take that ?

are you asking how far will our ability to understand genetics go? i have no idea.


I think the palm readers, cranium readers, astrologers, tea leaf readers, bone readers have all had a similar hope. Hey, many of them thought of themselves as doing a science too.

are you really comparing mathematically proven science to unproven hocus pocus??? i dont think i need to tell you how crazy that is.

a doctor can take a sample of your genes and tell you what the chance are of you getting cancer. he can factor in your life style - smoking, drinking, work environment, diet and alter the odds accordingly.......this isnt magical or futuristic or hocus pocus, its statistically proven maths and science. nothing like fkng palm reading matey boy.

I am pointing out that there is nothing much new under the sun really.

if thats what you think, next time you need go for a blood test why not go to a fortune teller instead........you wont because, science is brilliant at telling you whats happening and whats probably going to happen, fortune telling isnt.

as this science hasnt been around very long i would suggest that yes there are new things under the sun.

The possibilties of ailments that could conceivably happen, I think, are too numnerous to cross off in such a nifty way.

the point is not to compile a real list. it was to help emphasize and illustrate the point that there are many things such as diseases and drug abuse (amongst many others) that can calculate how and where they are more likely and to what extent they will occur.

this is the crux of my point, which you are yet to tackle. why can we accurately predict these things using formula that would indicate these things are not effected by outside forces such as 'evil,goodness, souls, sin' and these things that christians say effect humans. can you explain why we dont need these variables, can you explain any examples of when these variables have effected us and how they did it?

Your "comes from god list" sounds a bit contemptful.

sorry it wasnt meant to, i was trying to make my point clear, obviously it hasnt worked.

If I jump out of the window of a five story building I will fall and suffer. Perhaps I'll be killed. Regardless how spiritual I am, the law of gravity will take over and I probably will hit the ground too hard - and suffer.

its up to you if you want to include this as suffering from god. i dont know what is or isnt, thats your realm. all i am saying is we know where most suffering comes from and we know why most suffering occurs, we can predict some forms of suffering and we can create demographics that show a lot of mental and physical suffering occurs in specific areas rather than random. which show either god targets specific areas with specific suffering (mainly the poor) or spiritual things like sin and souls have zero effect on the physical world.



Why don't you reverse your attitude some time and think of how many things you could conceivably be thankful to God for?

this isnt a reversal of my thinking. we can look at the good things in life and we can figure out why people are happy and what causes happiness and again there is no sign that there is outside influences.


Look back over the last 365 days of your life. You couldn't imagine a list of fortunes by which you possibly could say thanks to God for ?

if you want me to imagine god exists then yes i can think of things. im not trying to say (in this thread) that god is bad.

i am specifically trying to look at suffering and its supposed connection to sin, souls and inherent evil/goodness.

ive pointed out several times that suffering (in general) is more condensed in specific demographics. to me this would be odd if god sends suffering, because statistics would imply that god is targeting specific groups. in a world with god this is the only conclusion i can come to.

can you explain why suffering is higher in specific demographics.



It seems you are only interested in a list of negative things as far as God is concerned.

i focus on the negative because in my opinion you are only as good as the worst things you do. you can list lots of good god has done, but the list of bad negates this. i would bot be best mates with a murderer because he did charity work when he wasnt out killing.


Sounds like pretty empty and pretensious stuff from one really hell bent on only thinking like a spoiled brat.

sorry, you have lost me??? in what way is it pretentious or spoiled???


I think its twisted to only think of God in terms of propogating a list of sufferings.

if i mention a list of sufferings that i attribute to god in a thread about how suffering effects man. it is not the only thing i think about god is it. we are not talking about the whole of god, it would be to big of a subject to cover, its hard enough condensing this into small readable points.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
american scientists cure h.i.v baby!! -

http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/breakthrough-hailed-in-us-as-atlanta-scientists-cure-hiv-baby-8518620.html


looks like gods gonna have to think up a new nasty little virus to wipe us out.

You see God in the opposite way than I do. To me God is the good force and Satan the evil force. Man has a choice to choose good or evil. My hope is that most will choose good, however today, with evil-lution and atheism, it appears the scale of justice is being tilted toward evil.

I also do not see the purpose of the Christian church is to fight against scientific advancement that make things good for the welfare of humanity as you and sunhouse seem to. I am only against using science as a tool to turn people away from believing God is good or that belief in God is superstition and has no value.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
give me proof that sin causes these things.

None of those things existed in Eden before the Fall.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I am only against using science as a tool to turn people away from believing God is good or that belief in God is superstition and has no value.

I believe in science and I believe in God. They are not mutually exclusive to an intelligent mind.

What I am against is people who try to turn one side against the other, i.e. God bad/Science good, or Science bad/God good. I believe in God good/Science good. What we have to be careful of is those who believe Science good/God bad starting to think that the scientists are God.

Originally posted by Suzianne
None of those things existed in Eden before the Fall.

neither did rock music, babies, books, australian shiraz, cheeses on toast, steam trains, the 1980's, moon landings, wonder-bras, sesame street, abs breaks, ikea, fish in a tin, pet dogs, bbq's, northern soul, bingo, freezer clips, tea bags, french kissing, photos, families, football or carbonated drinks.


it doesnt mean that any of these are caused by sin does it?.............except maybe the 1980's!!

Originally posted by Suzianne
I believe in science and I believe in God. They are not mutually exclusive to an intelligent mind.

What I am against is people who try to turn one side against the other, i.e. God bad/Science good, or Science bad/God good. I believe in God good/Science good. What we have to be careful of is those who believe Science good/God bad starting to think that the scientists are God.

My new thread "Spirit vs Matter" is good evidence of how little scientists know and how far they are from claiming to be equal with God. 😏