in your face god

Originally posted by RBHILL
It's just a movie.

its an analogy.

God is not interested in sinners groveling or begging. God does not joy to see you grovel.

God IS interested in something. That is our BELIEVING in Christ's death and resurrection for our salvation.

My tears do not cleanse me from my sins. It is the blood of Jesus which has cleansed me of my sins. The passage of a long time has not cleansed me of my transgressions. It is the blood of Jesus that has cleansed me.

Even my tears need to be washed in His blood.

God told Job to stand up like a man.
He doesn't want the sinner to hate himself.
He does want the sinner to believe in Christ.

Emphatically, it is not our regret that absolves us before God. It is Christ's redemption that clears our record absolutely before God. Our history becomes Christ Himself. And God then looks upon us as if we had never sinned.

"How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God." (Hebrews 9:14)

And again - "For I will be propitious to their unrighteousnesses, and theirs sins I shall BY NO MEANS REMEMBER ANYMORE." (Hebrews 8:12 my emphasis)

Then we can began to live a life united with the Son of God. We can live a life mingled with the life giving Spirit Who is the Holy Spirit - Christ in His pneumatic form.

"The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

in my world those 'sins' do not even register as bad things, all part of life.

A part of life, you say, because we have only known the world in this way.
Then a sinless One comes - Jesus Christ. He is normal.
Normality in human life is Jesus Christ.

The distance between Him and we is because we are abnormal, fallen and do not realize to what extent we have become fallen from what God intended by human being.

The New Testament is a testament about the Normal Man.
We need to be saved before God from our terrible fall into abnormality.

That we should be free from both sin AND death is what God meant by the world of human beings.

God is recovering the universe back to its condition before the rebellion of Satan and the fall of man and yet far beyond too -

"And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; death will be no more, nor will there be sorrow or crying or pain anymore; for the former things have passed away.

And He who sits on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said, Write, for these words are faithful and true. And He said to me, They have come to pass.

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give to him who thirsts from the spring of the water of life freely." (Revelation 21:4-6)

Originally posted by sonship

im not railing against bad religious types.

Perhaps railing is the wrong word. Perhaps "criticize" is what I should say.

If I notice you doing so, excuse me if I point it out to you. I think we can find an example before this post is completed.

You do have a measuring rod of some type by which you measure good behavior and ba ...[text shortened]... e should be free from both sin AND [b]death ...[/b]

You do have a measuring rod of some type by which you measure good behavior and bad behavior. Just admit it. Why deny it?

i dont deny it, maybe we have our wires crossed. i believe that people do things that we equate as good and bad. but these behaviors are down to our upbringings and dna. i believe that much 'bad' behavior can be cured and most will be cured in the future. i do not believe that there is such a thing as simply being 'evil' there is a physical reason for all behavior. nobody is just 'evil' or just 'good'.

There is no harm in admitting "Hey there are some things you Christians say which are hard, really hard to understand."

i know, thats why i said it in my post. i would point out that just because you say something thats hard to understand. doesnt make it correct.

That is complemetary. Thankyou. Now that is a value judgment that indicates to me that you have some kind of measuring rod by which you discriminate nice as opposed to not nice.

again, ive never said that i do not measure people. its impossible not to. i dont force my opinions on people though and i wouldnt punish people for not measuring up to my personal standards (except for those who cause physical and emotional damage to others).

i do not believe in evil as a force or something outside of the human mind. it is a measurement of behavior based on a negative variance from the norm.


There are things in the Bible which are difficult cases for me to explain. I admit that. There are some [b]difficult passages. I can offer my opinion.

I think the difficult passages are far outweighed by expressions of God's love, forbearance, mercy, kindness. [/b]

if i read a book and the writer mentioned 10,000 amazing, good things, but mentioned one sentence that said ' ohh and then a flooded the earth and killed a million people' the good would be forgotten in a second.


I don't think it is practically possible to live in the world as if you do not believe that something like sinful deeds don't exist.

it is practical because i and millions of other atheists manage to do it every day and have a good life. im very proud of the caring loving nature of my atheist family. we would offer you all the courtesies expected of a christian family. you tell me why we need sin, or to be described as sinful.

others in history have held an idea of perfection and it has caused them to do horrible things. if we remove the extremes of violent behavior and greed. can you imagine how great things would be. do we really need to micromanage all behavior? you say i have a mountain of sins after the big ones i admitted. do you really think those small things are bad??? we need the small things to contrast with the good. we would have no perspective of the good things in life if all we had were good things. ive seen kids who have had nothing and how happy they are when something good happens, ive seen kids who have the perfect loving warm life and they dont appreciate things as much (in general). we need imperfection (i dont consider it imperfection but its another conversation).


If you choose not to call stealing sinning

stealing is a crime, on the whole its a bad thing (there are exceptions). its bad because it effects the victim in an extremely negative way, they also have no choice or control over the theft. it is morally wrong to steal (in general). sinning is a crime against the laws of god and implies there is a seed of badness passed from adam that is causing the criminal to act. there is a big difference.


Besides, if you do not believe that the cosmic buck of RIGHTNESS stops with God, then with WHO does it stop ? Does it stop with you?

there is no such thing as the cosmic buck of rightness. rightness is a construct of the mind. it is only relevant as long as there is a mind to think it. animals also have a sense of rightness my passive meek dog save my baby son and wife from an attacking bigger more aggressive dog once...is that not moral behavior, she was going to sacrifice herself for the family.


It is good that you do see something. You humbly admit that you are aware of some offenses. It is only the tip of a vast iceberg.

its the tip of nothing. my bad behavior is relative, i could do or say something that helped 5 people but upset 4 is that good or bad. my wife loves my dark humor, sometimes it upsets her, she wouldnt take it away, is it good or bad that i have dark humor. most things are subjective, whats good for one person isnt whats good for another, so your idea of perfection is naive, perfection is impossible.


i bet, that you were either born and raised in a christian family or you have suffered from some form of personal disaster. the majority of christians have. its odd that people only become christians because they are brain washed as children or need something to stop them from self destructive behavior.

i dont deny it, maybe we have our wires crossed. i believe that people do things that we equate as good and bad. but these behaviors are down to our upbringings and dna.

I believe that the Mind which designed DNA knows these things.
"... God is greater than our hearts and knows all things" (1 John 3:20)

Though we are often ignorant of all contributing factors, I don't believe God is ever ignorant of all contributing factors.

i believe that much 'bad' behavior can be cured and most will be cured in the future. i do not believe that there is such a thing as simply being 'evil' there is a physical reason for all behavior. nobody is just 'evil' or just 'good'.

I think it would be foolish imagine that the Designer of our total humanity would overlook some important detail of why we did something.

Yes, by some social engineering, some outward conduct can be improved.
Up until the time of the flood of Noah, there was anarchy (in the true sense of the word). I don't mean necessarily chaos. I mean everyone simply was governed only by their own conscience.

After the flood of Noah God ordained human government. In this some amount of regulation of men towards men in the engineering way could take place. Some amount of restriction to wrong doing, therefore, was accomplished by the human government which God ordained after the period of anarchy.

i know, thats why i said it in my post. i would point out that just because you say something thats hard to understand. doesnt make it correct.

That's right. But it is hard to tell unless you do understand.

again, ive never said that i do not measure people. its impossible not to. i dont force my opinions on people though and i wouldnt punish people for not measuring up to my personal standards (except for those who cause physical and emotional damage to others).

You grant people their liberty. That's good.
Have you ever raised any children?
I've raised two who are now adults in their 30s.
And I am presently raising some nephews and nieces all under 14 years of age.

i do not believe in evil as a force or something outside of the human mind. it is a measurement of behavior based on a negative variance from the norm.

if i read a book and the writer mentioned 10,000 amazing, good things, but mentioned one sentence that said ' ohh and then a flooded the earth and killed a million people' the good would be forgotten in a second.

Another possibility is that we simply do not understand how "far from the norm" things in the world could actually get.

Above you spoke of behavior departing from the norm in a negtive way.
The story of Noah's flood could be a heads up, a warning not to under estimate just how awful this departure could be.

As I said before, there is not a hint from Jesus that His Father was wrong in bringing in a flood or in saving Noah and his family. Not one whisper from Christ that this judgment was wrong.

So a trust that what God had to do He had to do. And I take the flood account as it is presented everywhere else I can think of in Christ's teaching - as a reminder and a warning.

it is practical because i and millions of other atheists manage to do it every day and have a good life. im very proud of the caring loving nature of my atheist family. we would offer you all the courtesies expected of a christian family. you tell me why we need sin, or to be described as sinful.

That's great that you are curteous. It would be a pleasure to be well treated by your cultured family. I know that there are considerate people of many different beliefs from my own.

I am a curious about one thing. You chide God for the flood. Did you notice the millions upon millions killed by atheist regimes under Chairman Mau or Pol Pot ? Do you have a similar feeling about the huge body count racked up by the murders of these openly Athiestic regimes ?

And please do not try too hard to put a "Christian" hat upon Mau Tsetong or Pol Pot by some far fetched philosophical gymnastics.

others in history have held an idea of perfection and it has caused them to do horrible things.

This is true. When a utopian idea is enforced it often leads to great crime and misery.

if we remove the extremes of violent behavior and greed. can you imagine how great things would be. do we really need to micromanage all behavior? you say i have a mountain of sins after the big ones i admitted.

I use the example of vases in a vase shop after an earthquake. All the vases are shattered upon the floor.

Now some are in 100 broken pieces. Some are in 50 broken pieces. Some perhaps in 20 broken chards. And some fractured into 10 jagged pieces.

Maybe some are broken into two or three large pieces. Maybe those who are broken in only two big pieces could boast to those broken in 50 pieces. "See, we are not so much broken as you. We are only broken into two or three nice size fragments."

The point is that they are ALL broken. This is really what the Bible is saying. We have all fallen and are damaged. That some may think they can boast that they are less busted up, less damaged, is irrelevant to the One to Whom it ultimately matters most - God. We all have been damaged like all of the vases lying along the shop floor shattered in various degrees.

do you really think those small things are bad???

I am not God. I cannot look down the fabric of history and tell what reprocussions those actions had.

You simply do not know what far reaching effect on future lives your action had. Suppose one day God shows you who else's life your action negtively enfluenced to your surprise ?

Rather than argue with God about it, I prefer to contemplate the provision He has made in His love and grace for my forgiveness.

Leo Tolstoy wrote a novel once. A rich young man seduces a poor working maid in his household. To him it seems an innocent escapade. She has his baby as a result and is dismissed from employment, if I recall rightly.

One day many years latter as he is an adult he is made to serve on Jury Duty. The woman brought to trial for some crime he recognizes. She is now a prostitute and convicted of some crime. The man feels responsible for the situation of her life as it is on that day.

The rest of the novel is about how he does everything in his power to free her from being sent to Siberrean prison, manuevoring, planning, arranging, consulting with officials here and there.

He tries and tries to undo the trouble she is in because he feels personally responsible for the outcome of her life. Tolstoy very skillfully weaves the tale. It seems that he is always so close to redeeming himself and freeing the woman. But alas, he cannot. He follows her to the frozen desolate prison and repents to her through the bars of the prison.

Her life is now what it is. The system simply processes her along. And though the main character is able to help only a little here and a little there, Tolstoy effectively portrays the vanity of his effort. He simply cannot undo the consequences of his action.

This is the only novel I have read by Tolstoy. In English it would, I think, be translated as "Resurrection". I am not sure what the real meaning of the Russian title conveys.

I first read this novel because I heard a music piece written about the story and was touched to research what the story was about. For certain, I think Tolstoy conveys how the far reaching consequences of a young man's reckless adventurism he could not latter reverse though he so nobly tried.

Here's the piece by Roussel which lead me to want to read the novel:

YouTube

My point is that God alone has the big picture from His transcendent viewpoint. And rather than argue, I think I'll take His word for it that I need a divine redemption extended to me in Jesus the Son of God.

" ... if our heart blames us, it is because God is greater than our heart and knows all things. " ( 1 John 3:20)

well i put it to you that i could kick your gods arse in a fight. tell him i said so and tell him that i challenge him to fisty-cuffs tonight. something tells me he'll chicken out and not show.[/b]

funny how god gets the blame4so many things, the next think this guy with his fists up gets a bloody nose,&he blames it on god!

Originally posted by dunetwo
funny how god gets the blame4so many things, the next think this guy with his fists up gets a bloody nose,&he blames it on god!

God simply cannot take credit for everything whilst denying blame for anything.

Originally posted by sonship

i dont deny it, maybe we have our wires crossed. i believe that people do things that we equate as good and bad. but these behaviors are down to our upbringings and dna.

I believe that the Mind which designed DNA knows these things.

[b]"... God is greater than our hearts and knows all things" (1 John 3:20)

Though we are often ...[text shortened]... ter than our heart and knows all things. " ( 1 John 3:20) [/b][/b]

I believe that the Mind which designed DNA knows these things.

im not questioning if god does or does not know if a person has become bad because of their upbringing. im questioning the system, if all man is sinful then the suffering sent to teach us should be evenly spread among all men. but its not, its the opposite. there are logical patterns that dictate who is going to become bad, equations, maths, science can predict behavior because it is grounded in the reality of cause and effect.

if you mapped out anti social behavior, crime, abuse, drug addiction, physical and mental ill health on a giant map, you would get massive hotspots in areas of poor social economic areas. why? why are these people being effected by gods lessons more than others???? why isnt the giant map evenly covered?


The story of Noah's flood could be a heads up, a warning not to under estimate just how awful this departure could be.


there is no logical reason to warn people by killing millions of people. its barbaric, especially if you have the power to teach people just as well in a non-violent way............unless you are saying god does not have the ability to teach as well in a non violent way.

I am a curious about one thing. You chide God for the flood. Did you notice the millions upon millions killed by atheist regimes under Chairman Mau or Pol Pot ? Do you have a similar feeling about the huge body count racked up by the murders of these openly Athiestic regimes ?


yes, i think chairman mao and pol pot were murdering nutcases. im not sure what your point is.



I am not God. I cannot look down the fabric of history and tell what reprocussions those actions had.

but sin isnt about repercussions is it. a sin is a sin regardless of the outcome.

Leo Tolstoy wrote a novel once. A rich young man seduces a poor working maid in his household

resurrection.

have you read 'the trial' by kafka?

an omnipotent, unseen government accuses k (the protagonist) of a crime, which has broken a law of their construction. k is unaware of committing the crime and is never told what the crime was. he must stand trail and defend himself.

how can k defend himself against something that to him doesnt exist.

Originally posted by dunetwo
funny how god gets the blame4so many things, the next think this guy with his fists up gets a bloody nose,&he blames it on god!

That's the problem with an all seeing all powerful all knowing god who knows the future exactly (Cock crowing 3 times etc). He created everything and knew exactly what was going to happen. Seems to me fee will is an illusion under this doctrine,and god is responsible for everything.

im not questioning if god does or does not know if a person has become bad because of their upbringing. im questioning the system, if all man is sinful then the suffering sent to teach us should be evenly spread among all men.

As for suffering being spread out, all things considered, it is quite spread out. Other factors in my life counter balance certain misfortunes which have happened to me. And certain factors in me have also counter balanced fortunes I have enjoyed which others have not.

Didn't you notice this as a young person? I did. Certain friends who I considered rather materially rich also may have had to endure an alcholic parent. The suffering may be of another type.

The country I live in is very rich in some ways. In other ways we suffer perhaps more so than materially poorer countries. The USA has many well off and also many empty people clinging to drugs to releave the sense of boredom.

My point is that the suffering is quite more "spread out" then you may appreciate, all things considered.

As for the "system" I don't think you can systematize what is happening to the Nth degree. I don't think I am dealing with a computer program flow chart. I am dealing with a living God as a Person in the last analysis. One hundred percent theological systemization of the Bible, I don't think is possible.

but its not, its the opposite. there are logical patterns that dictate who is going to become bad, equations, maths, science can predict behavior because it is grounded in the reality of cause and effect.

Excuse me. This is very idealistic. I think it should be tempered with some realism.

My mother had to sign a medical document allowing psychiatric doctors to administer electrical shocks to cure her mother of mental illness. She died because of those electrical shocks.

This was the best "science" at the time. Today, it would be considered obsolete and wrong procedure.

The German doctors under Nazism performed experiments of horrendous nature for the what they considered the advancement of science.

I appreciate the advancement of scientific knowledge just as much as any modern man. But I am not going to go running from God into science as a idol.

And if we have mischievous people now "hacking" into computers to steal, control, munipulate today, what until they start wanting to "hack" into genetic engineering of human beings.

Look, I appreciate technological advancement. I do not look to technology to replace God and Christ.

Hackers of PCs today will become hackers of human genes and human minds of tomorrow. Some number of the smart people will always be corrupted and wicked thinking they can munipulate the systems.

You go ahead and put your trust in a Brave New Technocracy, B F Skinner or Peter Singer style.

I am much more impressed with Jesus.

Originally posted by twhitehead
God simply cannot take credit for everything whilst denying blame for anything.

and why not? Especially when the blame people pile on God belongs to man.

Originally posted by sonship

im not questioning if god does or does not know if a person has become bad because of their upbringing. im questioning the system, if all man is sinful then the suffering sent to teach us should be evenly spread among all men.

As for suffering being spread out, all things considered, it is quite spread out. Other factors in my life ...[text shortened]... cy, B F Skinner or Peter Singer style.

I am much more impressed with Jesus.

for suffering being spread out, all things considered, it is quite spread out. Other factors in my life counter balance certain misfortunes which have happened to me. And certain factors in me have also counter balanced fortunes I have enjoyed which others have not.


everybody has some level of suffering, that is true. i totally agree. but people in poorer areas have way more. you cannot deny it. the examples you give illness and drug abuse effect all of society, but statistically are much worse in areas of poverty.

much higher levels of drug, alcohol, violence, abuse, mental illness, poor education, disease, much shorter life spans and so on.....these are proven facts.

in return you have given - wealthy people suffer from materialism


why do poor people suffer more????


Excuse me. This is very idealistic. I think it should be tempered with some realism.

realism?!?! i am saying scientific methods can predict very accurately human behavior. this is fact - it is real. it can be done by looking at large groups using fluid dynamics and complexity theory, it can be done on an individual basis using statistics, psychiatry, sociology and so on.

fact.

we can does this because people behave (generally) in accordance to their surroundings.

if people have souls and sins that exist outside of our dna and upbringing then when and how do they effect us. because science has proven that (in the majority of cases) people learn and act because of their surroundings.

give me some examples of general behavior that cannot be attributed to dna, upbringing and environment? (not personal anecdotes as they are not representative of general behavior).


And if we have mischievous people now "hacking" into computers to steal, control, munipulate today, what until they start wanting to "hack" into genetic engineering of human beings.

you are off on a tangent here. i didnt say all science is good or that science has all the answers. the science i was referring to, fluid dynamics, complexity theory are measurable in their accuracy as they make predictions. check out the work of dr hannah fry if you want to learn more about complexity theory.

the more science can accurately predict human behavior the less space there is for out side influences on our behavior.

Originally posted by Suzianne
and why not? Especially when the blame people pile on God belongs to man.

and who decided the blame belonged to man................god.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
and who decided the blame belonged to man................god.

No, woman. 😏

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!

[qs] everybody has some level of suffering, that is true. i totally agree. but people in poorer areas have way more. you cannot deny it. the examples you give illness and drug abuse effect all of society, but statistically are much worse in areas of poverty. [/qs]

I do not deny totally that poverty implies more suffering.

This gives me no reason to assume Atheism must be true.
The connection between some people seeming to suffer more than others and God is not, does not click into place for me.

In the teaching of Luke 16 - of Lazarus the beggar and the rich man, Jesus teaches that the rich man was more comfortable during his life than the beggar Lazarus. So they did not have the same amount of suffering.

The end situation is reversed. Lazarus is not comforted and the rich man who despised him is in punishing torment. The teaching is a warning to the rich.

Your logic seems to be that because a comfortable rich man lived while a suffering poor man also lived - THEREFORE ... God does not exist, I say is a big error.

Yes, Jesus even agrees with you that suffering was not evenly distributed between the rich man and the beggar Lazarus. The fact did not make God less relevant. It made God more relevant.

much higher levels of drug, alcohol, violence, abuse, mental illness, poor education, disease, much shorter life spans and so on.....these are proven facts.

in return you have given - wealthy people suffer from materialism

why do poor people suffer more????

I may not be able to answer that tough question.
But the delimma, even taken at face value, does not cause me to dismiss God.

What I DO know is that God is operating in history towards a direction. And He will reach a goal. And in that climax sin, death, sorrow, crying, suffering will be no more.

The resurrection of Jesus has demonstrated that God can overcome all of these enemies of human well-being.

Jesus told His disciples that they would still have tribulation in the world. But He said, fear not because He had overcome the world -

"These things I have spoken to you that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have afflictions, but take courage; I have overcome the world." (John 16:33)

So we spread the good news - Christ has overcome the world. Even in our afflictions we can enjoy this One in peace who has overcome the world.

He is dispensing Himself into us to saturate us and fill us with eternal life.

realism?!?! i am saying scientific methods can predict very accurately human behavior. this is fact - it is real. it can be done by looking at large groups using fluid dynamics and complexity theory, it can be done on an individual basis using statistics, psychiatry, sociology and so on.

Great.
And we of Christ have a Man who overcame death and the tomb. Isn't that exciting too ?

I think so. And any boy, girl, man, woman can enter into the grace of Christ.
A Phd. in physics is not a requirement. Faith in the truth of the Gospel is all that is required.

Our communities of faith are sprouting up on all five continents of the globe.
In India, Africa, China, the Americas, Europe, Asia ,etc the faith is growing, spreading, cannot be put down or put out.

"In the world you have affliction, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

There is a Man, a wonderful God/Man who has overcome all. He is victorious and boyuant. He is transcendent and cannot be depressed. oppressed, suppressed or defeated. This is Jesus Christ our Savior crowned with glory.

Fluid dynamics is fantastic. Jesus the resurrection and the life is even more fantastic.

we can does this because people behave (generally) in accordance to their surroundings.

if people have souls and sins that exist outside of our dna and upbringing then when and how do they effect us. because science has proven that (in the majority of cases) people learn and act because of their surroundings.

Science is great. They change in what is said though. What is claimed this year may not be what is claimed next year. And the new guy working on his dissertation wants to make his or her own mark. Why should they just rehash the old explanations.

This is good. But this is shifting and changing.

Jesus said that to build a house on solid rock was to build upon His word -

"Every one therefore who hears these words of Mine and does them shall be likened to a prudent man who built his house upon the rock. And the rain descended, and the rivers came, and the winds blew, and they beat against the house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

And every one who hears these words of Mine and does not do them shall be likened to a foolish man who built his house upon the sand. And the rain descended, and the rivers came, and the winds blew, and they dashed against that house; and it fell, and its fall was great." (Matt. 7:24-27)

I love science. I spent a lot of time last night reading articles about what the surface of various planets must be like - Jupitar, Uranus, Neptune, Saturn. Tremendously interestng stuff.

But I want to build my house upon the rock of Jesus Christ and His word.
What is wrong with having the best of both worlds?

If you think believing into Christ will cause you to give up many happy hours of making scientific discoveries, I don't think you need to have that fear. For the biggest life decisions, I want my house built upon a rock that it may withstand the rising rivers, the blasting wind, and the torrents of rainfall.

Isaiah the prophet said that the Son of God would be like a massive ROCK in human history -

"Indeed a King will reign according to righteousness, and rulers will rule according to justice. And a man will be like a refuge from the wind and a covering from the tempest, like the shadow of a massive rock in a wasted land." (Isaiah 32:2)

The man Jesus, God's Son, surely has become this refuge and this massive rock within whose shadow we have comfort now and through eternity.

Originally posted by sonship
[qs] everybody has some level of suffering, that is true. i totally agree. but people in poorer areas have way more. you cannot deny it. the examples you give illness and drug abuse effect all of society, but statistically are much worse in areas of poverty. [/qs]

I do not deny totally that poverty implies more suffering.

This gives me no reas ...[text shortened]... e and this massive rock within whose shadow we have comfort now and through eternity.

Your logic seems to be that because a comfortable rich man lived while a suffering poor man also lived - THEREFORE ... God does not exist, I say is a big error.


no, thats no what im saying, im not comparing rich to poor, and im not trying to prove atheism is correct. maybe im not wording things well. ill try differently


my examples of poor people suffering more and methods such as fluid dynamics, complexity theory and statistics show that we can measure how and why people suffer and we can make accurate predictions based on the data we have on what will happen to them in their lives and what future suffering they will have.

i.e. a child who's parents are fat, drink too much and get divorced is much more likely to grow up to be fat, alcoholic and get divorced.

there is no indication that there is any other source for their behavior other than their dna and upbringing. if there is such a thing as 'sin' and 'good and evil' that exist beyond our minds......then where and how do they effect us? do you have any example??