in your face god

fundamentally, yes. morals are atoms slamming into each other (well actually they are mainly nothingness 99.9r of nothingness). in the same way that an a space rocket is nothing more than atoms slamming into each other (or quarks if you want to take it to an even smaller level).

What does a love atom weigh ?

What does a hate atom weigh ?

I am sure you could dazzle us with your knowledge of quarks, leptons, protons, muons, Higgs particals etc. But I don't believe that this materialism explains where the human moral sense comes from.

I don't think it touches the moral or spritual component of humanity. And reducing morality to atomic particles I think dehumanizes man.

But you go ahead and run with that. I am going to take God's word that we are created in the image of God. While the precise mechanics of that I may not know, I think it expresses from where our conscience and moral realizations originate.

Originally posted by sonship
[qs] are you really comparing aids to pricking yourself with a needle???? [/qs]

Not exactly. What I am doing is that when things of an unfortunate nature occur in this world, these are indications to us that something is amiss, something is not quite right, something is not under man's control.

God knew that man needs such reminders. In the fall o ...[text shortened]... sion of love towards you you flat out reject and even oppose apparently.

Not exactly. What I am doing is that when things of an unfortunate nature occur in this world, these are indications to us that something is amiss, something is not quite right, something is not under man's control.

absolute nonsense.

there are many ways mans lack of control could be exhibited by a god. causing death and suffering is a pretty sick way to do it.

the overwhelming majority of sick people on the planet are poor. if god is just letting us know we are going wrong then his methods should be arbitrary and effect all people regardless (the rich man carries just as much sin as the poor) yet it isnt arbitrary is it. does god have a grudge against the poor and uneducated of the world.

That's interesting. That is same feeling I have about what you wrote. Where does one start with such twisted logic

how can you call my logic twisted??? its a logic that applies to the world we live in, its a logic we all follow day to day. you use logic that only applies to your god, you change the rules of normal life and make excuses when it comes to god, this makes your logic - illogical as it only really applies to thing -god.

i say - good we have a cure for h.i.v. a disease sent by god to punish us and teach us a lesson. in our world teaching lessons by sending diseases is immoral.... hence my logic works. you start by thinking anything god does must be good because he says so, so there fore h.i.v. must be good......this is twisted logic.


This is what you hurl at the God who became a man Savior to save you from your sins

more crazy logic... god decided what sins are, you can not save somebody from a concept that you have forced on them. i create the concept of the law of squibble and decide that my kids have broken the law of squibble and then i think up of a crazy drawn out set of hoops my kids and there kids need to jump through to be cured of squibble........my kids would justifiably say 'dad, you are crazy stop going on about squibble'.

god - ive decided that if you do A then the consequences will be B and you will have to suffer C for X years.

as god is not governed by any out side force, he could change the variables to anything he likes, it has no meaning other than the one he gives it.

god didnt give up his son, god knows no true loss. he can do anything he wants, the power is always there if he chose. on of the key emotions to loss and especially the loss of a child is the feeling that there is absolutely nothing you can do, feeling totally helpless....god can never know those feelings its impossible. i think people talking about gods sacrifice is a insult to people who really have lost somebody.


You have quarrel with the Son of God. He says His Father is [b]"Righteous Father" . Like those who crucified Him you have quarrel with Him manifesting God, representing God, proclaiming God in every way. [/b]

i may disagree with some of jesus's beliefs. but as far as im aware he has never done anything bad. his father on the other hand, created sin, abused his creations, killed millions, created disease and likes to play pointless silly games with peoples lives. i can separate the sins of the father from his child.............unlike god. that makes me the better man (and to think you said nobody was better than god).

Originally posted by sonship

fundamentally, yes. morals are atoms slamming into each other (well actually they are mainly nothingness 99.9r of nothingness). in the same way that an a space rocket is nothing more than atoms slamming into each other (or quarks if you want to take it to an even smaller level).

What does a love atom weigh ?

What does a hate atom ...[text shortened]... ay not know, I think it expresses from where our conscience and moral realizations originate.

"What does a love atom weigh ?

What does a hate atom weigh ?"


is this a serious question?


"don't think it touches the moral or spritual component of humanity. And reducing morality to atomic particles I think dehumanizes man. "

i agree reducing anything down to its atomic structure takes away from the over all object, like staring so close to painting so you can see the individual droplets of paint means you cant see the beauty of the painting, yet still it is a fact that the individual droplets make the picture.

just because you cannot imagine how billions of atoms can make an emotion doesnt mean that it cant be true.

you must agree that we can create some emotions in lab, yes? so why do you find it so hard to leap to all emotions being created with chemicals. which ones cant??

My replies to you are going to be brief.

absolute nonsense.

No it is not nonsense. Genesis 3:18 is a brief window into the situation after Adam has relinquished deputy authority God assigned to man to the Devil -

"Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it all the days of your life; and thorns and thistles it will bring forth for you ..."

Concisely, the environment is no longer peacefully and favorably under the dominion as God had originally intended for man. Thorns and thistles may be extended to include HIV, Cancer, Parasites, and many things which plague humanity in this sin cursed world.

there are many ways mans lack of control could be exhibited by a god. causing death and suffering is a pretty sick way to do it.

I never said there were not many ways. "Many ways" does not exclude the way discussed in addition.

God is not sick. You and I are sick with the fall. Stand up next to Jesus Christ and you should see that you are the one in need of a physician.

the overwhelming majority of sick people on the planet are poor. if god is just letting us know we are going wrong then his methods should be arbitrary and effect all people regardless (the rich man carries just as much sin as the poor) yet it isnt arbitrary is it. does god have a grudge against the poor and uneducated of the world.

If God is prejudiced AGAINST the poor, why does the bible indicate certain passages like the following -

"And he lowborn things of the world and the despised things God has chosen, the things which are not, that He might bring to nought the things which are." (1 Cor. 1:28)

Lowborn we might certainly consider low in poverty rather than high in social class.

Mary also praised God - "The hungry He has filled with good things, and the rich He has sent away empty." (Luke 1:53)

Mary was exalting in her low social state that God had so richly blessed her to bring forth the Savior of the world. The poor God does not despise.

"Listen, my beloved brothers: Did not God choose the poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which He promised to those who love Him? " (James 2:5)

So I dismiss you attempt to paint God as despising of the poor.
In fact I dismess you entire attempt to portray God as not loving man - period.

Originally posted by sonship
I don't think it touches the moral or spritual component of humanity. And reducing morality to atomic particles I think dehumanizes man.

But you go ahead and run with that. I am going to take God's word that we are created in the image of God. While the precise mechanics of that I may not know, I think it expresses from where our conscience and moral realizations originate.

I still don't think you have been able to identify any fundamental difference between what you believe (that there is some system whose mechanics you don't understand) and what I believe (that there is some system whose mechanics scientists have been able to uncover to a fairly large degree, involving atoms/quarks etc).
Would knowing the mechanics of the system you believe in result in dehumanization? If not, then why not? If so, then is it not dehumanized whether or not you know about the mechanics?

Originally posted by sonship
My replies to you are going to be brief.

absolute nonsense.

No it is not nonsense. Genesis 3:18 is a brief window into the situation after Adam has relinquished deputy authority God assigned to man to the Devil -

"Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it all the days of your life; and thorns and or.
In fact I dismess you entire attempt to portray God as not loving man - period.

No it is not nonsense. Genesis 3:1 is a brief window into the situation after Adam has relinquished deputy authority God assigned to man to the Devil -


more nonsense. all you are doing is regurgitating what happened. the crux of my point is - this did not need to happen god creates the conditions, god creates the variables, there is no real rules as the rules are arbitrary. adam relinquishes authority to the devil - doesnt need to happen, god could have had any set of rules he likes, he could change the rules at any point. which makes it even more idiotic that could would allow these things to happen.

I never said there were not many ways. "Many ways" does not exclude the way discussed in addition.

strange to focus on the exclusion of 'anything' of coarse god coul have 'anything' my point is - why have cancer, malaria etc. when you could have a multitude of nicer options.


" If God is prejudiced AGAINST the poor, why does the bible indicate certain passages like the following - "

i see you skip over the logic to point out some scripture. god saying he likes poor people does not answer why the poor carry the brunt of gods punishments.

so ill ask again. if disease and illness is a punishment for all man because of the fall and to show us we are going wrong. why are the poor the most effected wouldnt logic dictate illness would be evenly spread among wealthy and poor?

on the same point, why would god give man the ability to cure these god sent punishments? why not create incurable things?

on the same point, if the world is getting worse and more corrupt. why are the signs of our fall, such as disease getting less and less?? there isnt much science hasnt defeated.


on the same point, if gods punishments for the fall are for all men, why are many illnesses genetically passed on? its as if he wants to punish specific family lines.


its funny, all your quotes are 'god says this, god said that, god says he loves x, god says he loves y'
yet if you look at his actions rather than his words a totally different picture is visible.

i for one prefer to measure people by what they do rather than what they say.



edit: if disease and illness is heavenly sent why do you fight against illness. i bet if cancer was 100% cured you would take the medicine if you contracted cancer. why, if it is sent to punish you why fight against god?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I still don't think you have been able to identify any fundamental difference between what you believe (that there is some system whose mechanics you don't understand) and what I believe (that there is some system whose mechanics scientists have been able to uncover to a fairly large degree, involving atoms/quarks etc).
Would knowing the mechanics of the ...[text shortened]... , then why not? If so, then is it not dehumanized whether or not you know about the mechanics?

Sure, scientists have been able to uncover to a large degree many aspects of the material univere which were previously unknown. I am all for this. Why should I be anti-science when many theists contributed to scientific advancement?

Let them explore as much as they can. Faith in God has never haulted people of faith from being scientists. If another 600 hundred years expands our knowledge of the macro and micro systems, I am for that.

But I believe there is a component to the human being which is metaphysical or spiritual or beyond man's measuring instruments. And in this realm such as the sense of goodness and non-goodness resides.

And some other aspects of our humanity reside in the realm also. Our microscopes, I don't believe, will ever be able to examine those things. And that even if science encreases in its knowledge 30 fold in the next 1,000 years.

In fact the more we discover the more we realize how much we do not know, generally.

If you are an advocate of what I would call scientism, then that is your religious belief. That is that science methods will reveal all truths of man's nature and existence. You are welcomed to have that hope in you. I don't have that. Yet I am just as enthusiastic about the newest science discoveries as you.

That God created man in His own image and according to His own likeness must contain some aspects which are not material. For God brought into being all that is material. For lack of a better human language expression - God was before the universe for God brought it into being. So God must transcend it.

I don't think that fact diminishes human worth or human dignity.
I do not think we are diminished because God created man in the image of God. In fact I think that furnishes man with a great dignity.

Of no other creature does the Bible say it was made in the image of God. And there is nothing else on the planet like a human being. I believe that that uniqueness is not just in the material make up of the molecules. It is also in something in a supernatural realm.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Having sex outside of marriage is a sin, you can hardly call that a 'very bad thing'. But that crime will result in being condemned to hell.

All sin leads to death, its like breaking a piece of glass it does not matter how
small or big the crack, you break it, the whole thing is broke. You/we can have
a sliding scales on what is good and bad, but our ways are not God's. There is
a way that seems right for man, but it leads to death.
Kelly

Originally posted by OdBod
Of course not, but I think a "Human Father" (mostly), would not condemn his child to an ETERNITY of pain and suffering for a crime. Don't forget that damnation is threatened for a number of transgressions some of which would now breach human rights,free speech etc.How would you feel about your Human father killing millions of people then telling you not to kill .

Human father's mostly? You know some have murdered their own, and done
very wicked things to them too. Transgressions against man has man setting
the scale of punishment, transgressions against God has God setting up the
punishment. If you are convicted in either you will more than likely be going
through some type of punishment, sometimes without any hope of avoiding it.
Kelly

Originally posted by stellspalfie
do you have grandchildren kelly? would you punish them for things that their parents did wrong?

We will be judged for what we did and didn't do, if the kids did nothing, than
they did nothing.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
We will be judged for what we did and didn't do, if the kids did nothing, than
they did nothing.
Kelly

judgement comes at the end of our natural lives. we get punished before that regardless if we are good or bad. seems like a bizarre system.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
judgement comes at the end of our natural lives. we get punished before that regardless if we are good or bad. seems like a bizarre system.

You live with the results of your actions in the here and now, you sleep around
and pick up an STD...its a result of your action, you slap someone in the face
and they break your jaw is a result of your actions, you rob a bank and get
caught you go to jail again a result of your actions, you live with the choices
you make! Those around you will either be blessed or cursed as to how close
they are to you personally. Now all of us who think they are getting away with
something, that will come back and bite them as everything will be put on
full display and all debts will be settled.
Kelly

Originally posted by stellspalfie
judgement comes at the end of our natural lives. we get punished before that regardless if we are good or bad. seems like a bizarre system.

Any punishment in the here and now may get it into your head that you need
to repent, but once your life ends its settled.
Kelly

Originally posted by sonship
Why should I be anti-science when many theists contributed to scientific advancement?

Because many theists find science threatening.

But I believe there is a component to the human being which is metaphysical or spiritual or beyond man's measuring instruments. And in this realm such as the sense of goodness and non-goodness resides.
And why do you believe this? Is it to try and protect your beliefs from the threat of science?
I don't think you are really getting the point though. It doesn't matter whether or not you know what rules apply or whether you can know what rules apply, the fact remains that rules necessarily apply. You have still not explained whether it is the existence of such rules or the knowledge of them that dehumanises things.
I also wonder if you have ever thought about what you actually mean by 'supernatural' and why you are so sure it cannot be studied through science.

Originally posted by KellyJay
All sin leads to death, its like breaking a piece of glass it does not matter how
small or big the crack, you break it, the whole thing is broke. You/we can have
a sliding scales on what is good and bad, but our ways are not God's. There is
a way that seems right for man, but it leads to death.
Kelly

Our ways are not Gods, and thank goodness for that. We used to punish people as detailed in the Bible back in the Medieval Period here in Western Europe. We now look back at that period of history as insanely brutal and violent.