12 Feb 14
Originally posted by CalJustGod doesn't ever coerce human will. In the scenario you've clarified with adults in imminent danger of becoming victims of both the conflagration and their own negative volition, with pangs of sadness I would respect their expressed wishes.
I can't make up my mind whether you are really unable intellectually to grasp the problem I have posed in this thread, or whether you do understand it and just trying to play the fool.
I am not referring to Penguin or anybody else's contribution, merely trying to get a response to my original OP.
Without repeating (for the umpteenth time) the scenario ...[text shortened]... uld you PLEASE try to answer the question?
You are fast losing credibility in this forum....
12 Feb 14
Originally posted by RJHindsIn case you couldn't understand what he was saying because you had your mind made up, he was not talking merely about the Lake of Fire. He was talking about eternal torment, you know, forever and ever. That is only for Satan, the False Prophet and the Beast. The rest who get consigned to the Lake of Fire die "the second death" (sound familiar?) and are no more.
So are you just going to ignore the following two verses?
[b]And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Revelation 20:18 KJV)
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
(Revelation 21:8 KJV)[/b]
12 Feb 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyThank you, yes you have at last answered the question.
God doesn't ever coerce human will. In the scenario you've clarified with adults in imminent danger of becoming victims of both the conflagration and their own negative volition, with pangs of sadness I would respect their expressed wishes.
Just to clarify: you are saying that if you were the fireman trying to rescue me from a burning house, but because i am so dazed by grief at my house burning that I say to you: "leave me alone!" that you would, with pangs of sadness, leave me to burn to death.
Am I understanding you correctly?
12 Feb 14
1 edit
Originally posted by CalJustOriginally posted by CalJust
Thank you, yes you have at last answered the question.
Just to clarify: you are saying that if you were the fireman trying to rescue me from a burning house, but because i am so dazed by grief at my house burning that I say to you: "leave me alone!" that you would, with pangs of sadness, leave me to burn to death.
Am I understanding you correctly?
"Thank you, yes you have at last answered the question.
Just to clarify: you are saying that if you were the fireman trying to rescue me from a burning house, but because i am so dazed by grief at my house burning that I say to you: "leave me alone!" that you would, with pangs of sadness, leave me to burn to death.
Am I understanding you correctly?"
Adding the new features of the building being your 'house' [a home] and that you were 'dazed by grief' [possibly incoherent] and that I'm in fact the 'fireman' to the hypothetical metaphor dramatically alters the context of the final question regarding my likely response. As a member of the local fire department I'd do my job as trained to do it and call for a paramedic.
12 Feb 14
2 edits
Originally posted by Great King RatPlease see CJ's clarified hypothetical and my reply.
No, you haven't. I asked about your grandCHILDREN, not adults.
Note: Here's the reality behind our conversational burning building metaphor:
_____________________________________________
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby Thread 157295
The Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15 NASB)
"If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:15*
"This is the saddest and most sobering passage in all of Scripture. Remember our Lord wept over death (John 11:35; Luke 19:41) - both physical death and especially the spiritual death (the second death) of all the unsaved, of all those who reject Him and His saving love offered at the cross. "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways!" (Ezek. 33:11) Thus no man should be able to read or teach this passage without sorrow in his heart, if not tears in his eyes. The reason Jesus spoke about hell more than anyone else did is because He wanted no one to go there. "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9; also see John 3:16) Yet, we see here and throughout the Bible, both the reality of hell, eternal torment, and the justice of hell.
"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them." The next scene John saw was the great white throne with the Lord Jesus Christ sitting upon it. This is based on John 5:22: "Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father." (Also see John 5:22-29 that speaks of the resurrection of the saved and the unrepentant and 2 Tim. 4:1.) At this point in this unfolding revelation, all those saved, Old and New Testament saints, Tribulation saints, and by implication, Millennial saints, have all received their resurrected, glorified bodies and thus belong to the new creation (2 Cor. 5:17) as God is about to destroy the old creation, the heavens and the earth (v.11).
"By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness." (See 2 Peter 3:7-13) "Since the coming of the Lord is in fact the end of the natural universe (2 Pet. 3:10-13), we read that there was found no place for them (v. 11), making way for a new heaven and a new earth to occupy the place left vacant by their dismissal" (21:1).Gregg, Steve: Revelation, Four Views : A Parallel Commentary. Nashville , Tenn. : T. Nelson Publishers, 1997. Satan and his demons have defiled the heavens (Eph. 6:12) and the earth is polluted and sin-soaked with the evil of fallen man. God's new creation will not just be a renovation and renewal as seen in the Millennium but an entirely new heaven and new earth. Science says that matter cannot be created or destroyed but God does both as seen here and in Genesis 1.
"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life." What a scary and awe-filled scene like the one Daniel describes in his vision (Dan. 7: 9-10). It seems that all unsaved people from Cain to the last rebel we see in the Millennium are all together standing before the Lord Jesus ready to be judged based on their works (and books were opened) and sentenced by the Judge of all. Scripture says no one is righteous, no one keeps the law and no one is saved by works of righteousness (e.g., See Rom. 3-4) because even our best deeds are as filthy rags [menstrual rags] compared to the pure white perfect righteousness of God (Isa. 64:6). The righteousness that God requires for a person to be saved is the perfect righteousness a righteous God is required to require. (Matt. 5:48) Thus the only way to be saved is by grace (God's undeserved forgiveness and favor) through faith (in what God in Christ did for us on the cross when He took the punishment for all of our sins and credited us with His perfect righteousness), and not by works (Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Cor. 5:21)."
http://www.kenboa.org/text_resources/teaching_letters/lens_mens_fellowship/6640
* "If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." It grieves me to realize there's the possibility that some of my acquaintances and friends who contribute to this forum may be among them. -Bob
12 Feb 14
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999Remember there is a great difference between falling and falling away. "For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, but the wicked shall fall by calamity." -- Proverbs 24:16. The difference is between a Peter and a Judas. And Rajk999, it clearly says a number here. We may understand that the actual number must in fact be higher than seven. Falling away isn't just falling into some sin, it is actually departing from Jesus Himself.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)
If one falls, does it mean they can't repent? That God prohibits their repentance? Remember first that repentance itself is a gift from God; no one genuinely repents without God's enabling. Second, if one does repent, that in itself is evidence that they have not truly fallen away. One also must remember that Paul was speaking to the new Christians here, most of whom came from Judaism. The falling away here means to return to Judaism and to renounce, or depart from, Jesus.
12 Feb 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyIf I read you right here, GB, you agree that the Lake of Fire does not mean Eternal Torment for man. It is the second death.
Please see CJ's clarified hypothetical and my reply.
Note: Here's the reality behind our conversational burning building metaphor:
_____________________________________________
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby Thread 157295
[b]The Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15 NASB)
[i]"If anyone's name was not ...[text shortened]... y that some of my acquaintances and friends who contribute to this forum may be among them. -Bob[/b]
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -- John 3:16, KJV
The word here is not be tormented forever and ever, but apollymi, or perish, be destroyed or be lost.
12 Feb 14
Originally posted by Suziannehttps://www.christiancourier.com/articles/710-second-death-separation-or-annihilation-the
If I read you right here, GB, you agree that the Lake of Fire does not mean Eternal Torment for man. It is the second death.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -- John 3:16, KJV
The word here is not be tormented forever and ever, but apollymi, or perish, be destroyed or be lost.
12 Feb 14
Originally posted by Suzianne"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -- John 3:16, KJV
If I read you right here, GB, you agree that the Lake of Fire does not mean Eternal Torment for man. It is the second death.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -- John 3:16, KJV
The word here is not be tormented forever and ever, but apollymi, or perish, be destroyed or be lost.
God's plan is never frustrated by human negative volition. He remains sovereign while man exercises self determination. God's sovereignty and man's free will co-exist in human history. God extends His magnificent grace to every individual. This absolute truth is evident in "whosoever"--- anyone, everyone--- is invited to believe in Christ for salvation. Man's refusal to accept what God offers in no way implies that no option existed. He desires that everyone accepts it and is not threatened by any man or woman's refusal which will result in separation from God and not sharing His happiness for all eternity.
13 Feb 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyGood morning, GB, hope you had a good night's sleep.
"This is the saddest and most sobering passage in all of Scripture. Remember our Lord wept over death (John 11:35; Luke 19:41) - both physical death and especially the spiritual death (the second death) of all the unsaved, of all those who reject Him and His saving love offered at the cross. "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I tak ...[text shortened]... y that some of my acquaintances and friends who contribute to this forum may be among them. -Bob[/b]
Am I right in sensing that you were slightly shaken up when you read the more personalised version of our scenario? Your reaction indicates that you ARE sensitive to the reality of the situation when it is brought home rather than theoreticised.
This makes you run for your comfort zone, which is Official Church Doctrine.
Actually, your lengthy quotation of this elaborate explanation merely supports my view. In fact, I could have used this very same passage in my OP to say the following:
Given this official interpretation of scripture, does it not logically make God more sadistic than the cruelest person you know?
ALL the elements of the fireman analogy are in this doctrine - the terrible threat, the willing offer made sacrificially, the rejection of this offer for whatever reason, followed by a moral decision which the rescuer must make.
My contention remains - if we all agree (and I think you finally do as well; RJH has agreed a long time ago) that the fireman is noble and to be commended if he were to drag a would-be victim kicking and screaming out of the blazing fire to save his life, then surely God cannot be less noble and caring than this fireman.
This is what logic dictates. And there is no point in saying piously: "Ah, but that is human logic! This is what GOD says!"
I was actually hoping for some serious deliberations how this obvious dilemma could be resolved, using other scriptures. But all you do is withdraw like a tortoise into official dogma!
Here is something that comes to mind:
1. Firstly, an obvious solution was already presented by Suzy and Rajk, by pointing out that death means, well, death, and not eternal life.
2. A second alternative which is quite possible is the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory. Here, after Hitler served his just punishment, after a certain time he will have paid his dues. This satisfies both God's judgement as well as justice and mercy. Incidentally, this will not conflict with the idea that: the worm dieth not, since the fire can continue to burn indefinitely, only with less and less occupants.
3. A third view which quite appeals to me is the idea that when Christ "descended into hell" after the crucifixion, and preached "to the souls in captivity" as Paul says, he gave those that died unbelievers a second chance. And who would be able to resist the preaching of Jesus himself?
The "official" view on this passage is, of course, that Jesus preached only to those souls that were dead AT THAT TIME, i.e. Before salvation was offered to all. My contention is that TIME is a concept that does not exist in the spiritual realm, and that he did, in fact, offer a second chance to all who end up here.
I can see both you and RJH quickly running to your Bible to point out the verse: there is only one life, and after that the judgement.
I did not claim that the solution to the dilemma of this post was easy, nor do I propose any of the three above as the final answer. All I am saying is that the problem posed is huge, and we need to see how ALL of scripture, not just a few well-chosen verses, give us a correct picture of God.
After all, none of us would feel comfortable getting to heaven to worship someone who would on earth be a disgraced fireman...
13 Feb 14
Originally posted by CalJust
Good morning, GB, hope you had a good night's sleep.
Am I right in sensing that you were slightly shaken up when you read the more personalised version of our scenario? Your reaction indicates that you ARE sensitive to the reality of the situation when it is brought home rather than theoreticised.
This makes you run for your comfort zone, which is Off ...[text shortened]... el comfortable getting to heaven to worship someone who would on earth be a disgraced fireman...
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by CalJust
"Thank you, yes you have at last answered the question.
Just to clarify: you are saying that if you were the fireman trying to rescue me from a burning house, but because i am so dazed by grief at my house burning that I say to you: "leave me alone!" that you would, with pangs of sadness, leave me to burn to death.
Am I understanding you correctly?"
Adding the new features of the building being your 'house' [a home] and that you were 'dazed by grief' [possibly incoherent] and that I'm in fact the 'fireman' to the hypothetical metaphor dramatically alters the context of the final question regarding my likely response. As a member of the local fire department I'd do my job as trained to do it and call for a paramedic.
Nothing's changed, CJ. Wise to avoid both comparisons with other contributors (which are odious) and Operation Overthink.
13 Feb 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbySorry, you have to be a little more specific, I don't want to misinterpret what you are trying to say.
Nothing's changed, CJ. Wise to avoid both comparisons with other contributors (which are odious) and Operation Overthink.
Are you suggesting we should not think too much? Or ask embarrassing questions?
Stick to the party line, is that it?