Is God more cruel than the worst sadist you know?

Originally posted by josephw


[b]"Did I ANYWHERE in this or other threads question volition?"

In the quote above you said that you would be a puppet under this scenario. By that I assume you mean you would have no free will.[/b]

Yes, I do believe in free will, and no, I do not believe in the kind of God that you sketch.

My choice, and I take it.

Edit. Maybe I need to elaborate a little for clarity.
The God you postulate, and the picture it raises in my mind, is exactly the kind of God I was raised to "worship" and fear in the Lutheran church. A black figure in the background, all-powerful, all knowing, always ready to hit you over the head when you step out of line, no mercy but all judgement.
That is the image I have shed, and have never looked back

Originally posted by CalJust
Why on earth do you say that "I think emotions belittle God"??

Far from it! Our own emotions are a reflection of God's, since we are created in His image!

But again, you chose to give a looooong lecture about God rather than answer the simple question I posed.

Because facing the answer would cause you some mental gymnastics, methinks.

Communication is like that, I saw your question and gave the answer I felt
was addressing your point. You saw my response and claim I did nothing
but gave you a lecture instead of answering the question you asked which
in your mind was a clear as the morning sun.
Kelly

Originally posted by CalJust
And your point is....?

Did I ANYWHERE in this or other threads question volition?

We ALL have free will - that is NOT the point of this thread. The question posed is that some Christians say that God will NEVER violate man's free will, whilst acknowledging that doing so on the human level is seen (under certain conditions) as a virtue.

With such an ...[text shortened]... icult issues, does it come as a surprise when Atheists on RHP heap such scorn on the Christians?

God does not violate man's free will, but man's will can be a violation
towards both God and man and as such will require "conditions" that are
very difficult and unpleasant.
Kelly

Originally posted by CalJust
Simple question, Freaky, yes or no:

Do you believe that anybody who has not accepted Christ as their Personal Saviour will be punished by God in hell for all eternity?

Actually, that's not a simple question.

I'll put it in a way that is more correct.

Everyone born on the face of the planet from Adam until the last person (whomever and whenever that might be) is born with their name written in the Book of Lives.

Their names remain in that book unless they willfully reject the work done by the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross.
If there is ever acceptance of that gift at any point while the person is alive, their name remains in the Book.
If a person was given opportunity to accept the gift and they reject it, their name is blotted out.
If a person was never given opportunity to accept the gift, and yet lived in accord with a basic agreement with accountability, their name remains in the Book.
If a person never makes it to the age of their accountability, their name remains in the Book.

Only those whose names are listed in the Book will receive eternal life.
All of those whose names have been blotted out of the the Book of Lives and are subsequently entered into the Book of Works will be judged according to their works in relationship to God's righteousness.
If anyone whose name in found in the Book of Works has reached a level of righteousness on par with God's perfect righteousness, they will receive eternal life (hint: no one in the second Book is able to equal God's righteousness).
All people whose names are not in the Book of Lives as well as all people whose names are in the Book of Works yet who are judged as not equaling God's righteousness will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which was originally made and reserved for Satan and his fallen angels.

According to everything I've read, hell is forever.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Actually, that's not a simple question.

I'll put it in a way that is more correct.

Everyone born on the face of the planet from Adam until the last person (whomever and whenever that might be) is born with their name written in the Book of Lives.

Their names remain in that book unless they willfully reject the work done by the Lord Jesus Christ on ...[text shortened]... reserved for Satan and his fallen angels.

According to everything I've read, hell is forever.

I wonder where your biblical education comes from that you call it the Book of Lives. (Not criticizing, just wondering.) I've mostly just heard it called the Book of Life.

Edit: Also, I've never heard of this Book of Works.

Originally posted by CalJust
Yes, I do believe in free will, and no, I do not believe in the kind of God that you sketch.

My choice, and I take it.

Edit. Maybe I need to elaborate a little for clarity.
The God you postulate, and the picture it raises in my mind, is exactly the kind of God I was raised to "worship" and fear in the Lutheran church. A black figure in the background ...[text shortened]... of line, no mercy but all judgement.
That is the image I have shed, and have never looked back

Sorry Cal, but you must have been an idiot. I've never heard of that kind of God being taught in any Christian church. You obviously weren't listening.

"A black figure in the background"? Indeed! Have anymore fairy tales?

BTW What's your problem with the God of the Bible? It's not my sketch. If you think you know something about God, then tell who He is and how you know it.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I wonder where your biblical education comes from that you call it the Book of Lives. (Not criticizing, just wondering.) I've mostly just heard it called the Book of Life.

Edit: Also, I've never heard of this Book of Works.

I was wrong!
At least, I think I was...
I'll have to research a bit more later, but restricted to only Revelation 20, the scrolls are used in order as such:
biblia nominative plural neutral (referring to both sets)
biblion nominative singular neutral (referring to the genitive singular feminine, tEs zOEs of the life)
bibliois dative plural neutral (referring to the dative plural neutral, ta erga the acts)
biblO dative singular feminine (referring again to the genitive singular feminine, tEs zOEs of the life)

I think I was confusing it with the Tree of Lives u-otz e-chiim of Genesis 2:8.
My bad...

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Actually, that's not a simple question.

I'll put it in a way that is more correct.

Everyone born on the face of the planet from Adam until the last person (whomever and whenever that might be) is born with their name written in the Book of Lives.

Their names remain in that book unless they willfully reject the work done by the Lord Jesus Christ on ...[text shortened]... reserved for Satan and his fallen angels.

According to everything I've read, hell is forever.

Thanks for this detailed explanation.

Actually, I have never come across this doctrine before; and it certainly does not appear to be Biblical.

But again, that is my opinion. I'm sure you have your reasons.

Originally posted by CalJust
Yes, I do believe in free will, and no, I do not believe in the kind of God that you sketch.

My choice, and I take it.

Edit. Maybe I need to elaborate a little for clarity.
The God you postulate, and the picture it raises in my mind, is exactly the kind of God I was raised to "worship" and fear in the Lutheran church. A black figure in the background ...[text shortened]... of line, no mercy but all judgement.
That is the image I have shed, and have never looked back

The New Testament books explain much of the Old Testament writings and they both work together to reveal the True God to a reasonable degree in written form. However, it is up to you to study to show yourself approved by God and in so doing you will gain your own understanding of what God means to you. Jesus came to give us a clearer understanding of the True God, so pay attention to His words and actions as recorded in written form.

Originally posted by josephw
Sorry Cal, but you must have been an idiot. I've never heard of that kind of God being taught in any Christian church. You obviously weren't listening.

"A black figure in the background"? Indeed! Have anymore fairy tales?

You clearly underestimate the power of imagery in children...

Sure, I was an idiot - a very scared idiot.

You are probably too young to remember the Holiness Movement. 1950s. Only Do's and Don'ts. God all the time watching you, the Giant Policeman in the Sky, missing nothing.

The picture in our Entrance Hall was of the Broad Way and the Narrow Way - the road full of jolly people leading into the distance where a precipice awaits, down which one hurtles into the waiting forks of laughing demons, surrounded by fire. Near the front, a small gateway leads left, up a steep path towards a cross on a hill. Only about two or three pilgrims are struggling up this narrow path.

This picture gave me the creeps.

But it is the exact same pernicious doctrine still being preached today. The only difference seems to be that people don't visualize the implications so clearly...

Originally posted by CalJust
Yes, I do believe in free will, and no, I do not believe in the kind of God that you sketch.

My choice, and I take it.

Edit. Maybe I need to elaborate a little for clarity.
The God you postulate, and the picture it raises in my mind, is exactly the kind of God I was raised to "worship" and fear in the Lutheran church. A black figure in the background ...[text shortened]... of line, no mercy but all judgement.
That is the image I have shed, and have never looked back

It's my hope that at some point in your adult life you will have developed the capacity to get past this childhood trauma.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Actually, that's not a simple question.

According to everything I've read, hell is forever.

Actually, in the final analysis, the question IS simple...

And your answer is Yes.

That's fine, and you have lots of company.

Ponder this final thought: After all is wrapped up, and God presides over Forever-after Eternity, there is a group of people (say 10 - 15 % of all who ever lived, give or take) on the right hand side, singing Hallelujahs, whilst on the left, just across the wide gulf, there is the remaining 85 - 90 % of humanity screaming in pain.

Forever...

Enjoy, God!

I think I have said all I wanted to say in this thread.

In peace.

CJ signing out.

Originally posted by CalJust
Actually, in the final analysis, the question IS simple...

And your answer is Yes.

That's fine, and you have lots of company.

Ponder this final thought: After all is wrapped up, and God presides over Forever-after Eternity, there is a group of people (say 10 - 15 % of all who ever lived, give or take) on the right hand side, singing Hallelujahs, whi ...[text shortened]... God!

I think I have said all I wanted to say in this thread.

In peace.

CJ signing out.

But it is God's wish that all come to the knowledge of the truth and repent of their sins.

Originally posted by RJHinds
But it is God's wish that all come to the knowledge of the truth and repent of their sins.

Exactly - and do you believe that in the end God gets what He wished for, or will his wish be thwarted....by man's Free Will?

Sorry, couldn't resist that. But I will certainly not start this debate all over again - just go back to the OP!

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
It's my hope that at some point in your adult life you will have developed the capacity to get past this childhood trauma.

By God's grace I was able to shed that long ago.

When I had that old picture of God, I was under the impression (also based on many scriptures!) that Jesus came to save me from God's wrath. But then I learned that it was actually Jesus' main purpose to show us who the Father really is!

He said: "When you have seen me, you have seen the Father." Imagine that!

My purpose in this thread was to point out the incongruity in still today believing in this medieval picture of God.

Nuff said. CJ out.