27 Sep 05
Originally posted by blindfaith101that i am going to die is fine by me if dying simply means a permanent end to my consciousness. i have absolutely no qualms about that. however, your view of death for the "unbeliever" is torture and pain for all eternity -- and all because this "unbeliever" did not adopt the faith-based belief in a supernatural being for which there is no evidence. with that i have a problem. if your god did present himself to me, his method of "justice" would in itself be enough for me to tell him to go shove it. your god clearly has little or no respect for human life; based on your observations, why would you think he is going to keep any promises he has made? in your view, he goes around "punishing" mankind with hurricanes and other natural evils, and you are worshipping him? yikes.
Has not GOD revoked our privileges? Did he not move us out The Garden of Eden. And tell us that we are going to die? Is that not constructive? If mankind refuses to obey GOD, is he not an unbeliever?
27 Sep 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloUnfortunately only one died and came back to life after 3 days and nights. Before HE died He taught that there is consciousness in death and in Hell. Therefore death is just the beginning of the next stage of our exsistance. We can say/talk all we want but the final proof is what matters. It's when we are proven right or wrong that is the truth.
that i am going to die is fine by me if dying simply means a permanent end to my consciousness. i have absolutely no qualms about that. however, your view of death for the "unbeliever" is torture and pain for all eternity -- and all because this "unbeliever" did not adopt the faith-based belief in a supernatural being for which there is no evidence. ...[text shortened]... g" mankind with hurricanes and other natural evils, and you are worshipping him? yikes.
You want GOD to present Himself to you. When you chose to disbelieve all the evidence that HE daily gives. I hope you donot wait until that day of Judgement, to find that proof that you seek. It will be a little to late then.
27 Sep 05
1 edit
Originally posted by blindfaith101Please give us some EXAMPLES of the EVIDENCE you CLAIM he gives on a DAILY basis.
Unfortunately only one died and came back to life after 3 days and nights. Before HE died He taught that there is consciousness in death and in Hell. Therefore death is just the beginning of the next stage of our exsistance. We can say/talk all we want but the final proof is what matters. It's when we are proven right or wrong that is the truth.
You ...[text shortened]... until that day of Judgement, to find that proof that you seek. It will be a little to late then.
27 Sep 05
2 edits
Originally posted by blindfaith101I hope you donot wait until that day of Judgement, to find that proof that you seek. It will be a little to late then.
Unfortunately only one died and came back to life after 3 days and nights. Before HE died He taught that there is consciousness in death and in Hell. Therefore death is just the beginning of the next stage of our exsistance. We can say/talk all we want but the final proof is what matters. It's when we are proven right or wrong that is the truth.
You ...[text shortened]... until that day of Judgement, to find that proof that you seek. It will be a little to late then.
thank you for your concern. but who says that it is my responsibility to seek out proof for the existence of your god? there are those who believe in (and boldly assert the existence of) fairies and elves. is it my responsibility to seek out proof for such creatures as well?
if i want to be the life of the party, i will leave my invisibility cloak at home.
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28 Sep 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressSo...by your reasoning, will God be forgotten in a perfect heaven?
If one is to believe that God is all powerful, more powerful than the devil, and that he hates evil, then it is necessary to believe that God allows evil.
Personally I believe that God allows evil to happen primarily for one reason, to get us to turn to him. When things are perfect, God gets forgotten. When people get into trouble then God is ...[text shortened]... ally we just have ourselves to blame.
Anyway, that's my scope on it. Take it or leave it. 🙂
The storm that Jesus stopped on the Lake was caused by God?
If God is causing us harm in order for us to turn to Him, where is free will?
28 Sep 05
Being the capricious god that it seems to be, a couple of months
ago it hit the Muslims with the Tsunami now when the Christians
are all nice and contented their god must be happy with them because
it hit the Muslims, now its the Christians turn. Don't worry though,
next it will probably by the Hindu's followed by the Buddhist's.
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28 Sep 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressSodom was destroyed by God, but this was not the time of "Grace."
One more little detail I forgot to mention. In the King James version, the word authority is not used. Instead, it is power that the devil offers Jesus. This makes a difference in the following way. Since God has given us free will, we may choose to give the devil power by giving into his temptations. If you take a city like Sodom for example, wher ...[text shortened]... to speak, and now can't do anything about it. Legal pitfalls are probably an Earthly phenomena.
We live in a different dispensation or time.
The OT was under Law.
The word for authority/ power is exousia.
Who gave it to Satan? Was it not Adam?
What does Jesus mean in John 10:10? when He says the thief comes to kill, steal and destroy?
Does God allow him?
28 Sep 05
3 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiterGood questions!
So...by your reasoning, will God be forgotten in a perfect heaven?
The storm that Jesus stopped on the Lake was caused by God?
If God is causing us harm in order for us to turn to Him, where is free will?
Hmmm, what do I think about that. Well, If you look at Heaven as a literal Kingdom, then God would be apparent to those who were there. He would be the ruler. I look at Heaven in a more spiritual sense. As so often I have quoted "The kingdom of Heaven lies within." I believe that our souls are reflections of God, and it is this perfect divine aspect of us that we are supposed to look for and find within ourselves.
Jer 29:13 "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall seek me with all your heart." This doesn't mention reading scripture by the way.
There is also a place in Psalms I believe that says something like "be still and know that I am God." Of coarse these passages may be interpreted in more than one way, but I believe that it all goes back to discovering God within ourselves.
My feeling is that once we make it to Heaven, it is impossible to forget God, for God is Heaven. At least it is far less likely that God will be forgotten in Heaven then it is here on Earth.
2. If you believe that God created nature (which you probably do if you've read Genesis) then yes, storms happen because of God's natural laws. That is the way he created the Earth.
As for your last question, again, your choice of words makes the difference. If God is everything that is good, then what is not God is bad, right? There is a difference between "causing" harm as you put it, and allowing harm to happen. If you go to a doctor and the doctor deliberately causes you harm, that is different then say a doctor wanting to help you, but for whatever reason you refuse his help. You have the free will to go to the doctor or not.
Usually, when people get sick, they seek medical help. In the same way God encourages us to seek his help.
28 Sep 05
2 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiterExousia? Please stick to words that are in the dictionary.
Sodom was destroyed by God, but this was not the time of "Grace."
We live in a different dispensation or time.
The OT was under Law.
The word for authority/ power is exousia.
Who gave it to Satan? Was it not Adam?
What does Jesus mean in John 10:10? when He says the thief comes to kill, steal and destroy?
Does God allow him?
If Adam and Eve sinned and that part of the Bible can be taken literally, then they gave the devil power (and they were imperfect). If you claim that the devil has some sort of authority over God, I just don't buy it. That is starting to sound like Satanism.
It sounds like Jesus is refering to Satan in John 10:10. If there was no darkness, there could be no light. If there was no evil, there could be no good. Evil has to be. That doesn't mean that we have to choose evil. The idea is to choose God.
28 Sep 05
Originally posted by sonhouseI think the point you are trying to make is that only small minds think like that. I totally agree.
Being the capricious god that it seems to be, a couple of months
ago it hit the Muslims with the Tsunami now when the Christians
are all nice and contented their god must be happy with them because
it hit the Muslims, now its the Christians turn. Don't worry though,
next it will probably by the Hindu's followed by the Buddhist's.
28 Sep 05
Originally posted by The Chess Express
Exousia? Please stick to words that are in the dictionary.
If Adam and Eve sinned and that part of the Bible can be taken literally, then they gave the devil power (and they were imperfect). If you claim that the devil has some sort of authority over God, I just don't buy it. That is starting to sound like Satanism.
It sounds like Jesus is ...[text shortened]... good. Evil has to be. That doesn't mean that we have to choose evil. The idea is to choose God.
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28 Sep 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressThis is from Strong's definition..
Exousia? Please stick to words that are in the dictionary.
If Adam and Eve sinned and that part of the Bible can be taken literally, then they gave the devil power (and they were imperfect). If you claim that the devil has some sort of authority over God, I just don't buy it. That is starting to sound like Satanism.
It sounds like Jesus is ...[text shortened]... good. Evil has to be. That doesn't mean that we have to choose evil. The idea is to choose God.
1849 exousia (ex-oo-see'-ah);
from 1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, i.e. (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely, magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence:
KJV-- authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.
I did not say nor claim that "Satan has some kind of authority over God".
I said he has authority given him over the earth...it is satan who caused the storm while Jesus slept to try and kill Him.
It is satan who throughout the OT tried to wipe out the Jews to prevent the prophecy of Genesis 3:15.
It is Satan who influenced Herod to kill all the firstborn 2 yrs old or under to try and stop Jesus from coming.
It is satan who hates God's chosen people and tries to destroy them.
It is satan who brings sickness, death and destruction on all of God's creation.
It is satan who brought on the halocaust, trying to kill the Jews who gave birth to Jesus.
It is satan who is behind wars, catastrophies, heartache, etc.
The sad part is he usually gets a free pass from unknowing Christians who blame God, who is all Good and in Him is no darkness at all.
28 Sep 05
2 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiterThat's an interesting position. God created the Earth, but gave Satan authority over it. Does that authority extend to us or just the natural world? To me it makes no difference as we live in the natural world. I have a hard time making sense of this.
This is from Strong's definition..
1849 exousia (ex-oo-see'-ah);
from 1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, i.e. (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely, magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence:
KJV-- authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, stren ...[text shortened]... pass from unknowing Christians who blame God, who is all Good and in Him is no darkness at all.
If Satan had authority over the Earth, how could nature be so good? Why does nature sustain us? Think about it. Why does Satan bother to go through the trouble of tempting us? What Satan wants is to destroy us. The reason why he doesn't just do this is because God has the ultimate authority and does not allow it. If we do evil then God allows evil to be returned to us (reap what you sow). The point is, the Devil has to trick us into doing evil.
If Satan had authority over the Earth, would he not make all the food poisonous? Would he not have annihilated us a long time ago? I don't believe it was just the jews that he tried to wipe out. The jews are not the only ones being tempted, then or now.
If Satan convinces an evil dictator to torture and kill his own people (like he has), is that not any different than what Herod did?
We don't really know what causes natural disasters. If we did, we would be able to predict them. All we know is the mechanisms by which they operate. My gut feeling is that if we lived in harmony with nature and ourselves (and stop listening to Satan) there would be a sharp decline in the number of natural disasters, as well as many other problems.
Look at it this way. If you give a population of fish water to swim in, and then they develope things like fossil fuels and pollute the water and kill themselves? Is it your fault? God gave us nature and nature is good. It sustains us. If it were not for nature we would never have gotten started on this planet. Satan want's to destroy all that is good as you pointed out, but he can't. God created nature as he created us and God doesn't let him. So Satan is reduced to trying to trick us into destroying nature and ourselves. This does not really sound like authority to me. Perhaps one could say that God gave Satan the authority to tempt us.
In your last message you wrote:
"It is satan who brings sickness, death and destruction on all of God's creation.
It is satan who brought on the halocaust, trying to kill the Jews who gave birth to Jesus.
It is satan who is behind wars, catastrophies, heartache, etc."
Does this not sound a bit too much like the old blame it on the Devil argument? We are the ones who make the choices.