27 Aug 05
Originally posted by orfeoLook at the Greek. The word for Spirit is 'Pneuma' which is also the word for
The Holy Spirit is quite clearly translated in English Bibles as a 'he' rather than an 'it'. Are you saying that's wrong?
wind. It is feminine. Translations that use 'he' are doing so disingenuously.
Nemesio
27 Aug 05
Originally posted by NemesioI don't think that the Greek will help either of you on this one. Both Greek and Hebrew have words with specific genders. However, these grammatical genders do not relate to sex. The word for a man's hand in Hebrew is a feminine word. Body parts and abstract ideas are generally feminine. Spirit and wind are certainly abstract ideas.
Look at the Greek. The word for Spirit is 'Pneuma' which is also the word for
wind. It is feminine. Translations that use 'he' are doing so disingenuously.
Nemesio
27 Aug 05
Originally posted by kingdanwaIf they are abstract, then, as I said, the use of 'he' is disingenuous. The use of
I don't think that the Greek will help either of you on this one. Both Greek and Hebrew have words with specific genders. However, these grammatical genders do not relate to sex. The word for a man's hand in Hebrew is a feminine word. Body parts and abstract ideas are generally feminine. Spirit and wind are certainly abstract ideas.
'it' is the most appropriate.
However, we both know that, in the Bible, personification of abstract ideas are
very common. For example, 'Wisdom' gets personified in several places in the
Bible. The word in Greek is 'Sophia,' if you recall, and, unsurprisingly, Wisdom
is referred to as a 'she.' This gender attribution is normatively assigned by the
gender of the noun in question.
A man's hand never gets personified in the Bible. As such, it would be ridiculous
to refer to 'it' as a 'she.' The Holy Spirit DOES get personified, and, therefore,
it would be most honest and consistent to refer to it as a 'she' given the feminine
noun form.
Nemesio
27 Aug 05
Originally posted by NemesioI follow you Nemisio. But I don't think we need to ban all gender-assignments. I'm comfortable calling a boat "she" and my neutered dog "he." Also, we could regard the "Holy Spirit as He" as an example of synecdoche. The Bible does refer to God as Father. Synecdoche is a legitimate linguistic tool. If one sees the Holy Spirit as God and the Father as God, "He" is a defensible pronoun to replace "Holy Spirit." I would agree that "It" is just as defensible. But my point is that we need not rule out "he" because of grammatical gender.
If they are abstract, then, as I said, the use of 'he' is disingenuous. The use of
'it' is the most appropriate.
However, we both know that, in the Bible, personification of abstract ideas are
very common. For example, 'Wisdom' gets personified in several places in the
Bible. The word in Greek is 'Sophia,' if you recall, and, unsurprisingly, ...[text shortened]... most honest and consistent to refer to it as a 'she' given the feminine
noun form.
Nemesio
28 Aug 05
Originally posted by NemesioWhat about the Hebrew word for father, "av" ? The singular noun is masculine. But the plural, fathers, is "av-oth." "-oth" is a feminine plural noun ending.
A man's hand never gets personified in the Bible. As such, it would be ridiculous
to refer to 'it' as a 'she.'
Nemesio
My point is that it doesn't matter whether or not a hand gets personified as a she or whether pneuma has to be an it, what I'm getting at is that the Greek and Hebrew genders alone cannot determine meaning. We must read the context of these words in light of their applications/referrents within the text.
28 Aug 05
Originally posted by kingdanwawhen he was dying on the cross the cross why didn't say " father why have i forsaken myself?" instead of "father why have YOU forsaken me?' if jesus really was god, then who was up stairs taking care of business while jesus was on earth for 33 years?
I think you meant to say that he never calls himself God, by using the words, "I am God." Paul certainly doesn't hesitate to call him God. You also might consider reading the first chapter of John's gospel.
i think when jesus says he is god he is simply saying that he is gods representative on earth. otherwise, it makes no sense when the bible states that god loved mankind so much that he gave his only beggotten son as a sacrifice for man's sins against god.
jesus was also dead for three days and resurected by the holy spirit( the power of god ) if jesus was god and god died then how could there be a god to resurrect god?
if my bible study memory serves me correctly, jesus was the human incarnation of the archangel michael, god's first and foremost creation in the spirit world before god started messin' round with flesh and blood and it all went horrribly wrong
i'm going to have to lay down now.🙄🙄
28 Aug 05
Originally posted by cavanI'd be interested in some biblical support for your Michael theory, I'm not familiar with it.
if my bible study memory serves me correctly, jesus was the human incarnation of the archangel michael, god's first and foremost creation in the spirit world before god started messin' round with flesh and blood and it all went horrribly wrong
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28 Aug 05
How can anyone one read the following verses and say that God and Jesus are one and the same.....
[b]Rom 15:6
6 ...that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(NKJ)
2 Cor 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
(NKJ)
2 Cor 11:31
31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.
(NKJ)
1 Cor 8:6-7
6 ...yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for....[b/]
(NKJ)
29 Aug 05
Originally posted by kingdanwaTo do so would be revisionist. The use of the feminine for the Holy Spirit isn't just
I follow you Nemisio. But I don't think we need to ban all gender-assignments. I'm comfortable calling a boat "she" and my neutered dog "he." Also, we could regard the "Holy Spirit as He" as an example of synecdoche. The Bible does refer to God as Father. Synecdoche is a legitimate linguistic tool. If one sees the Holy Spirit as God and the F ...[text shortened]... as defensible. But my point is that we need not rule out "he" because of grammatical gender.
based in gendered pronouns, but in the writings of the early Christians themselves with
its roots in orthodox Judaism.
My source: http://www.pistissophia.org/The_Holy_Spirit/the_holy_spirit.html
Consider:
The writings of the Catholic fathers, in fact, preserve the vision of the Spirit encapsulating the "peoplehood of Christ" as the Bride or as the "Mother Church." Both are feminine aspects of the Divine. In the Eastern Church, Spirit was always considered to have a feminine nature. She was the life -bearer of the faith. Clement of Alexandria states that "she" is an indwelling Bride. Amongst the Eastern Church communities there is none more clear about the feminine aspect of the Holy Spirit as the corpus of the Coptic-Gnostics. One such document records that Jesus says, "Even so did my mother, the Holy Spirit, take me by one of my hairs and carry me away to the great mountain Tabor [in Galilee]."
The 3rd century scroll of mystical Coptic Christianity, The Acts of Thomas, gives a graphic account of the Apostle Thomas' travels to India, and contains prayers invoking the Holy Spirit as "the Mother of all creation" and "compassionate mother," among other titles. The most profound Coptic Christian writings definitely link the "spirit of Spirit" manifested by Christ to all believers as the "Spirit of the Divine Mother." Most significant are the new manuscript discoveries of recent decades which have demonstrated that more early Christians than previously thought regarded the Holy Spirit as the Mother of Jesus.
One text is the Gospel of Thomas which is part of the newly discovered Nag Hammadi texts (discovered 1945-1947). Most are composed about the same time as the Biblical gospels in the 1st and 2nd century AD. In this gospel, Jesus declares that his disciples must hate their earthly parents (as in Luke 14:26) but love the Father and Mother as he does, "for my mother (gave me falsehood), but (my) true Mother gave me life." In another Nag Hammadi discovery, The Secret Book of James, Jesus refers to himself as "the son of the Holy Spirit." These two sayings do not identify the Holy Spirit as the mothering vehicle of Jesus, but more than one scholar has interpreted them to mean that the maternal Holy Spirit is intended.
Of course, you will point out that these are non-canonical writings and have no
authoritative standing in revealing inspiration of God. Pretending for a moment
that such a stance is universal, we need to ask 'What does this show us?'
Keep in mind that the doctrine of the Trinity was not a firmly established
notion in the New Testament period, but something that developed over time. It
wasn't until 200 years after Jesus that it had relatively universal currency. As such,
the formative documents (including those listed above) should serve as indicators to
contemporary Christian thought.
It wasn't until Latin became the dominant language and 'Spiritus' (masculine) replace
'Pneuma' (feminine) that the Holy Spirit became 'male-ified.' Many writings preceding
that refer to 'it' as a 'she,' using female metaphors to boot.
If you want to be revisionist, that's fine with me. But your sentiments are not a
reflection of early Christian thought. Frankly, I'd rather trust Clement of Alexandria.
Nemesio
P.S., Would you object if the Bible started to refer to 'Wisdom' (Sophia) as a he?
29 Aug 05
1 edit
Originally posted by NemesioNemesio,
To do so would be revisionist. The use of the feminine for the Holy Spirit isn't just
based in gendered pronouns, but in the writings of the early Christians themselves with
its roots in orthodox Judaism.
My source: http://www.pistissophia.org/The_Holy_Spirit/the_holy_spirit.html
Consider:
[i]The writings of the Catholic fathers, in fact, pres ...[text shortened]...
Nemesio
P.S., Would you object if the Bible started to refer to 'Wisdom' (Sophia) as a he?
I have no problem calling the Spirit a he, a she, or an it. I'm glad that you sought out Clement. I just get frustrated when people pull the "Original Langauges Card" as if that solves every question.
Edit: Not sure why the font is strange, sorry.
29 Aug 05
1 edit
Originally posted by Nemesio"Seven appeared in chaos, androgynous. They have their masculine names and their feminine names. The feminine name is Pronoia (Forethought) Sambathas, which is 'week'.
To do so would be revisionist. The use of the feminine for the Holy Spirit isn't just
based in gendered pronouns, but in the writings of the early Christians themselves with
its roots in orthodox Judaism.
My source: http://www.pistissophia.org/The_Holy_Spirit/the_holy_spirit.html
Consider:
The writings of the Catholic fathers, in fact, pres
Nemesio
P.S., Would you object if the Bible started to refer to 'Wisdom' (Sophia) as a he?
And his son is called Yao: his feminine name is Lordship.
Sabaoth: his feminine name is Deity.
Adonaios: his feminine name is Kingship.
Elaios: his feminine name is Jealousy.
Oraios: his feminine name is Wealth.
And Astaphaios: his feminine name is Sophia (Wisdom).
These are the seven forces of the seven heavens of chaos. And they were born androgynous, consistent with the immortal pattern that existed before them, according to the wish of Pistis: so that the likeness of what had existed since the beginning might reign to the end. You will find the effect of these names and the force of the male entities in the Archangelic (Book) of the Prophet Moses, and the names of the female entities in the first Book of Noraia. "
excerpt from " On the Origin of the World"
29 Aug 05
Originally posted by kingdanwathere's an extra html tag , [ i ] left on the post you replied to
Nemesio,
I have no problem calling the Spirit a he, a she, or an it. I'm glad that you sought out Clement. I just get frustrated when people pull the "Original Langauges Card" as if that solves every question.
Edit: Not sure why the font is strange, sorry.
to edit your font remove it ,, in the previous post box