Originally posted by galveston75The majority of the Greek texts have the Greek word "Theos" meaning "God." A few have the Greek word "Os" meaning "Who". It is most likely a copyist error that left off the first two Greek letters by mistake and other copies repeated this error. That is a more likely explanation than someone adding two Greek letters in my opinion.
Your bible or the ones I quoted from?
We have other verses like John 1:1,14,18 and Colossians 1:15,19 and Colossians 2:9 indicating Jesus was God manifest in the flesh to support this view.
The Instructor
Originally posted by galveston75You quote the Good News Translation and the New Living Translations in reference to 1 Timothy 3:16. I want to make you aware that these version are not trying to be literal translations. For the New Living translation, the same Greek word that it translates as "our faith" instead of "godliness" in 1 Timothy 3:16, it translates as "godliness" in verses 4:8 and in 6:5 and 6:6. The Good News Translation also translates that same Greek word that it translates as "our religion" as "godliness" when it appears in 1 Timothy 6:11. What do you think is up with that?
Funny how you always find the bible that supports the trinity when many don't. Try these where it never says "God" as it does in yours...
1 Timothy 3:16
Good News Translation (GNT)
16 No one can deny how great is the secret of our religion:
He appeared in human form,
was shown to be right by the Spirit,[a]
and was seen by ange ...[text shortened]... ey knew it shouldn't be there and that it should not be influanced by the trinity theory?
Your own New World Translation translates that Greek word as "godly devotion" instead of "godliness" as in the New Kings James Version that I quoted. Here is the way it reads:
Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.’
(1 Timothy 3:16 NWT)
I will admit that the NWT is trying to be a literal translation as much as possible, but The Watchtower Society must consider "godly devotion" a great sacred secret. However, we Christians consider "godliness" a mystery rather than godly devotion.
The Instructor
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
who is talking here,
'although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.' Phillipans 2:6
thanks
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
(Revelation 1:10-11 KJV)
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last;' and, 'What thou dost see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven assemblies that are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.'
(Revelation 1:11 Young's Literal Translation)
The following is from Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last,.... These characters, which are repeated here; see Gill on Revelation 1:8; are left out in the Alexandrian copy, the Complutensian edition, the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Ethiopic versions; but are very fitly retained, to point out the person that speaks; to express his dignity, deity, and eternity; to excite the attention of John, and to give weight to what he said:
The words, "which are in Asia" are also left out of some manuscripts.
The Instructor
Originally posted by RJHindsmore satanic propaganda
[b]I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and u ...[text shortened]... ty; to excite the attention of John, and to give weight to what he said:
The Instructor
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThese are the words of Christ himself, appearing at once, and confirming what John had said of him, concerning his person, offices, and future coming: Alpha is the first letter, and Omega the last in the Greek alphabet, and signifies that Christ is the first and the last, as it is interpreted in Revelation 1:11, and is a character often given to the divine Being in prophetic writings; see Isaiah 41:4; and is no small proof of the proper deity of Christ. Alpha is used by the Jews for the chief of persons or things.
more satanic propaganda
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Why would Satan want to exalt Christ Jesus?
The Instructor
Originally posted by RJHindsyou wish to do the desires of your father the devil
[b]These are the words of Christ himself, appearing at once, and confirming what John had said of him, concerning his person, offices, and future coming: Alpha is the first letter, and Omega the last in the Greek alphabet, and signifies that Christ is the first and the last, as it is interpreted in Revelation 1:11, and is a character often given to the divin ...[text shortened]... xposition of the Entire Bible
Why would Satan want to exalt Christ Jesus?
The Instructor
Even if you deny the trinity there is no doubt as to who is speaking in the opening chapters of Revelation and the contexts is the Risen Glorified Jesus speaking to His Churches
Revelation 1:17.....
17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. 19 Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.
Now in Context: Who was dead and behold is alive forevermore ? And earlier in the verse He says I am the first and the last? It's simple no complexity at all this is none other than Jesus. Now if you deny the trinity fine but you do have to ask why would Jesus call Himself the first and the last?
Manny
PS: My Christian attitude is one who is tired of ones denying Christ is rightful place
And proof that the Lamb receives worship............ Revelation 5:11........
Angels Exalt the Lamb
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,
“Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”
13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
“To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”
14 And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped
Once again even if you deny the trinity we see the Lamb (Jesus) receiving worship along with the One sitting on the throne......Reading in context....
So you have to ask why is this Lamb receiving worship along with the One siting on the Throne? either this is irreconcilable problem and we can say the bible is not trust worthy or maybe there is another explanation Like the Lamb the the One on the Throne are Equal ? I think that be the answer.
Manny
From just to be fair
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/revelation/5/#v-11
11And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands,12saying with a loud voice: “The Lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.”
13And every creature that is in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, I heard saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.”14And the four living creatures went saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
So even in the New World Translation (into English anyway) it is seen that the Elders fell down and worshiped The Lamb and the One on the throne amazing
Manny
Originally posted by menace71That is probably some things that they will change in a future revision of their NWT, if they come to see this as a problem. They did that with their current version for those reasons.
From just to be fair
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/revelation/5/#v-11
11And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands,12saying with a loud voice: “The Lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power ...[text shortened]... een that the Elders fell down and worshiped The Lamb and the One on the throne amazing
Manny
The Instructor
Originally posted by menace71Deuteronomy 10:20
And proof that the Lamb receives worship............ Revelation 5:11........
Angels Exalt the Lamb
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,
“Worthy is the Lamb that was sl ...[text shortened]... Like the Lamb the the One on the Throne are Equal ? I think that be the answer.
Manny
20 “Jehovah your God you should fear. Him you should serve, and to him you should cling, and by his name you should make sworn statements.
Joshua 24:14
14 “And now fear Jehovah and serve him in faultlessness and in truth, and remove the gods that YOUR forefathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt, and serve Jehovah.
Jesus is now being quoted:
Matthew 4:10
10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah* your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’
Luke 4:8
8 In reply Jesus said to him: “It is written, ‘It is Jehovah* your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’
In light of these scriptures and Jesus's own words, it is only his Father, Jehovah that is to be worshipped.
Now this scripture clears this up:
Revelation 7:11:
11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their faces before the throne and worshiped "God".
You have to remember Jehovah is on his throne and his son Jesus is sitting to his right on his throne.
Two thrones side by side.
The scripture you quoted says "to Him who sits on the throne ( Jehovah ) and to the lamb" who is on his throne.
Then after saying what they did they fell and worshipped who? It says "God" not two Gods but only one and it never says that Jesus was worshipped.
Originally posted by galveston75Exactly they fell down and worshiped.......Who ? The one on the throne and the Lamb !!! So either the Bible is teaching a false doctrine the worship of Jesus and The One on the throne (2) or they are co-equal and one it is a paradox of sorts but we (you included) can't have it both ways one way is right and one way is not. This all the More in light of Exodus 10
Deuteronomy 10:20
20 “Jehovah your God you should fear. Him you should serve, and to him you should cling, and by his name you should make sworn statements.
Joshua 24:14
14 “And now fear Jehovah and serve him in faultlessness and in truth, and remove the gods that YOUR forefathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt, and se ...[text shortened]... who? It says "God" not two Gods but only one and it never says that Jesus was worshipped.
Manny
Originally posted by menace71"The Lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.”
Exactly they fell down and worshiped.......Who ? The one on the throne and the Lamb !!! So either the Bible is teaching a false doctrine the worship of Jesus and The One on the throne (2) or they are co-equal and one it is a paradox of sorts but we (you included) can't have it both ways one way is right and one way is not. This all the More in light of Exodus 10
Manny
It doesn't say here that he was worshipped but yes worthy of the things it mentions.
And by Jesus's own words in the Bible it is "only his father that is to be worshipped". You do see that when you read those scriptures don't you and understand that is Jesus speaking?
So yes Jesus was sitting by his Father Jehovah and recieved honor and glory but never is he to be worshipped.
If he was also worshipped as you say then Jesus lied to all when on earth.
Is this your belief?
Test scripture with scripture. When you read Jesus's own words and commands he cleary stated that it is ONLY his Father that is to be worshipped.
If they both are to be worshipped that would be hypocritical of the whole Bible.
Again I still have to ask, where is the holy spirit in all of this? Is he or it to be worshipped? If so where does the Bible say this?