Isiaha 9:6

The NAS Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon

Strong's Number: 410
Original Word Word Origin
la shortened from (0352)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
'el TWOT - 93a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ale Noun Masculine
Definition

god, god-like one, mighty one
mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
angels
god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
God, the one true God, Jehovah
mighty things in nature
strength, power


NAS Word Usage - Total: 235
El-berith* 1, God 204, god 16, God's 2, gods 3, helpless* 1, mighty 3, Mighty One 3, power 1, strong 1

The word used for God here is El which has all of the meaning above

Manny

1 Now when Abram was ninety-nine * years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty ; Walk before Me, and be blameless.

Genesis 17:1 the term God Almighty is used

Manny

Originally posted by menace71
Ok I'll take a crack at this It's Mighty God vs Almighty God right ? I also do not know the Hebrew words for Mighty God vs Almighty God But I will look these words up first and look at them and see if I can ascertain the difference between the two words. I can tell you that Isaiah 9:6 is/was referring to the coming Messiah (Namely Jesus) Can we or do ...[text shortened]... 'm not trying to prove Jesus is anything other than this scripture is referring to Him)

Manny

I have no question that "mighty" and "almighty" are different words. But I am saying the true God is both "mighty and "almighty" by definition. The JWs say Jesus is a mighty god, but not the almighty God. But the apostle Paul wrote of Jesus that the fullness of the Godhead dwelt in Him bodily.

They deny the deity of Christ by saying Satan is the god of this world and judges were called gods, so jesus in no better than a false god that is only mighty, not almighty. They apparently believe in many gods, with only Jehovah, which they say is God the father, as being the true almighty God.

So have at it.

The NAS Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon

Strong's Number: 7706
Original Word Word Origin
yddX from (07703)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Shadday TWOT - 2333
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
shad-dah'-ee Noun Masculine
Definition

almighty, most powerful
Shaddai, the Almighty (of God)

The Almighty part is different as the word there is Shaddai but it is used with El (the word we see in Isiah 9:6) El Shaddai can be translated God Almighty El Shaddai is like a compound word it seems and the obvious is that Shaddai is used as the most powerful

Manny

PS problem is we know your preconceived notions -- Honestly though I'm being honest and just looking at the words used and their meanings and trying to be logical and not pay attention to any of my preconceived views

So now back to Isiah 9:6 let's look at this again with the original language



Manny

Ok so we established that these words are indeed different Almighty vs Mighty and the word El can be used of strong men or anything strong so my question is now so what ? Let's look at the whole verse in context and if necessary in the original language. I get the point that for whatever reason Isiah chose to use mighty instead of Almighty.

Manny

The NAS Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon

Strong's Number: 5703
Original Word Word Origin
d[ from (05710)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
`ad TWOT - 1565a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ad Noun Masculine
Definition

perpetuity, for ever, continuing future
ancient (of past time)
for ever (of future time)
of continuous existence
for ever (of God's existence)


NAS Word Usage - Total: 49
all 1, continually 1, Eternal 1, ever 15, forever 26, forever* 1, forevermore* 2, old 1, perpetual 1

this is the word eternal

Manny

The NAS Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon

Strong's Number: 1
Original Word Word Origin
ba a root
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
'ab TWOT - 4a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
awb Noun Masculine
Definition

father of an individual
of God as father of his people
head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan
ancestor
grandfather, forefathers -- of person
of people
originator or patron of a class, profession, or art
of producer, generator (fig.)
of benevolence and protection (fig.)
term of respect and honour
ruler or chief (spec.)


NAS Word Usage - Total: 1210
ancestors 1, family* 1, father 571, Father 8, father's 137, fathers 333, fathers' 120, fathers' households 1, forefather 1, forefathers 27, grandfather 1, grandfathers 1, households 5, Huram-abi* 2, sons 1

Ab the word for Father (kinda like Abraham) so we have an Eternal Father

Manny

Ok so now tell us Robbie what your wanting us to see? I see and actually agree that the words are different Almighty vs Mighty no argument at all. problem is you still have to deal with the context(flow of thought) of the verse. How can the mighty God be an eternal father ? If the mighty God is indeed a lesser God ? Isaiah had a thought there (Of course He was told by God what to write) it flows That the Messiah would be called these things it goes as far as these will be His name. Maybe it is as simple as it is not referring to to the father at all but the Son (the Eternal Son)

Manny

Originally posted by menace71
Ok so now tell us Robbie what your wanting us to see? I see and actually agree that the words are different Almighty vs Mighty no argument at all. problem is you still have to deal with the context(flow of thought) of the verse. How can the mighty God be an eternal father ? If the mighty God is indeed a lesser God ? Isaiah had a thought there (Of course ...[text shortened]... as simple as it is not referring to to the father at all but the Son (the Eternal Son)

Manny

Your research is excellent and i thank you for it, the term that is actually used in Isaiah as you have clearly demonstrated has the definition, of god like, mighty and may equally be applied to men as well as to Christ, this is not so with the term for almighty God which is applicable only to the Mos High himself.

My purpose was to demonstrate to those who accused me of polytheism namely Jaywill and the jester, that I am not polytheistic because the Bible states that there are godlike creatures. That was my purpose. Secondly although it was not my original intent I wanted to demonstrate that there is no basis from an examination of the original language for assuming that the reference is to the Almighty, for clearly its not.

Now you can use interpretation and the context to try to support the idea that it is, but you cannot derive the idea from an understanding of the original language as has been clearly demonstrated, for the term mighty god is not a reference to the almighty, not in purely linguistic terms.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I have no question that "mighty" and "almighty" are different words. But I am saying the true God is both "mighty and "almighty" by definition. The JWs say Jesus is a mighty god, but not the almighty God. But the apostle Paul wrote of Jesus that the fullness of the Godhead dwelt in Him bodily.

They deny the deity of Christ by saying Satan is the god of ...[text shortened]... nly Jehovah, which they say is God the father, as being the true almighty God.

So have at it.

Remember, part of the JW agenda is to classify many things into tight little boxes so that their man-made dogma seems to make sense. They must do this because most people would come to their own opinions of their false dogma on their own, but by controlling the definitions, they in effect 'move the playing field' to a location more suiting their bizarre theories.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Your research is excellent and i thank you for it, the term that is actually used in Isaiah as you have clearly demonstrated has the definition, of god like, mighty and may equally be applied to men as well as to Christ, this is not so with the term for almighty God which is applicable only to the Mos High himself.

My purpose was to demonstrate to ...[text shortened]... ted, for the term mighty god is not a reference to the almighty, not in purely linguistic terms.

Why do you *consistantly* only accept ONE meaning for words with multiple meanings? AND you totally reject context, as well as common usage at the time of the writing, as a guide for determining the correct meaning!

All in the name of promoting your corporation's agenda. And you feel no shame in this. Incredible.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Your research is excellent and i thank you for it, the term that is actually used in Isaiah as you have clearly demonstrated has the definition, of god like, mighty and may equally be applied to men as well as to Christ, this is not so with the term for almighty God which is applicable only to the Mos High himself.

My purpose was to demonstrate to ...[text shortened]... ted, for the term mighty god is not a reference to the almighty, not in purely linguistic terms.

I also don't see how anyone can take you seriously now after your error with Colossians 1:15. You've been shown to be far from a 'translation master' as you claim.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I also don't see how anyone can take you seriously now after your error with Colossians 1:15. You've been shown to be far from a 'translation master' as you claim.

wow, I am the King of translation, you cant touch me!

So I contend that no matter the language original or otherwise context and flow of thought still are foundational to understanding what the writer intended. I will look into the word Mighty and see not only how many times it is used in the old testament but also look at the context in which it is used. The original languages and words can and do usually have multiple meanings. The word Love for example in the new testament has like 5 different meanings depending on the word that is being used. English can kinda lose the meaning just a bit.

Manny