26 Feb 14
I don't get this...
Israel is a state populated by the people of God himself, the jews, right?
And the jews dismiss Jesus Christ as the Messiah, right?
So if God's own people dismisses Messiah, then Jesus cannot be the Messiah, right?
Who can say against God's people, they, if anyone, must be right, right?
Please, inform me where I go wrong in this reasoning...
26 Feb 14
Originally posted by FabianFnasThe apostle Paul (Saul) attempts to explain this in his letter to the Christians of Rome.
I don't get this...
Israel is a state populated by the people of God himself, the jews, right?
And the jews dismiss Jesus Christ as the Messiah, right?
So if God's own people dismisses Messiah, then Jesus cannot be the Messiah, right?
Who can say against God's people, they, if anyone, must be right, right?
Please, inform me where I go wrong in this reasoning...
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin...
What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Just as it is written:
“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”
And David says:
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”
I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
...
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
(Romans 11:1, 7-12, 25-32 NKJV)
26 Feb 14
Originally posted by RJHindsHe says a lot, and hide the answer pretty well.
The apostle Paul (Saul) attempts to explain this in his letter to the Christians of Rome.
[b]I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin...
What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Just as it is ...[text shortened]... em all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
(Romans 11:1, 7-12, 25-32 NKJV)[/b]
I rather want to know your own explanation.
Is the people of God right? And if so: Are we still waiting for the first Messiah to arrive, according to the ancient prophesis?
26 Feb 14
Originally posted by FabianFnasThe Jews were blinded and refused to accept the Messiah when He first arrived. It is clear that the Messiah had to come during the time of Jesus to fulfill the prophecy of daniel 9. But the Messiah also had to fulfill many other prophecies including His death to bring in everlasting righteousness.
He says a lot, and hide the answer pretty well.
I rather want to know your own explanation.
Is the people of God right? And if so: Are we still waiting for the first Messiah to arrive, according to the ancient prophesis?
At one time the interpretation of all the prophecies was that there must be two messiahs to be able to fulfill all those prophecies. A messiah to suffer and die and another messiah to come to reign as king. The Christian interpretation is that Jesus fulfilled a portion of those prophecies as the Messiah at His first coming and will fulfill the remaining prophecies upon His return in the future.
The Jews wanted a messiah to come and set up a kingdom, not a suffering messiah. So they still wait for His first and only appearance, while we Christians wait for His second appearance.
26 Feb 14
Originally posted by RJHindsSo for short: The Jews were wrong, and the Christians were right?
The Jews were blinded and refused to accept the Messiah when He first arrived. It is clear that the Messiah had to come during the time of Jesus to fulfill the prophecy of daniel 9. But the Messiah also had to fulfill many other prophecies including His death to bring in everlasting righteousness.
At one time the interpretation of all the prophecies was ...[text shortened]... till wait for His first and only appearance, while we Christians wait for His second appearance.
Or put in another way: The chosen people of God was wrong, and the we, the other ones, were/are right?
So if the Jews is wrong in a such important question, who are they to live in the holy land and not the Christians, who, in fact, is right?
What is your personal explanation to this?
26 Feb 14
Originally posted by FabianFnasI accept the apostle Paul's explanation that it is a plan of God to choose a people by which He could bring the offer of salvation to all people. Their sin of rejection of God allows Him to make a new covenant in order to offer the gift of eternal life also to those who were not chosen.
So for short: The Jews were wrong, and the Christians were right?
Or put in another way: The chosen people of God was wrong, and the we, the other ones, were/are right?
So if the Jews is wrong in a such important question, who are they to live in the holy land and not the Christians, who, in fact, is right?
What is your personal explanation to this?
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
(John 3:16 NKJV)
26 Feb 14
Originally posted by RJHindsPaul doesn't know anything about making of the jewish state of Israel. Let's forget about him.
I accept the apostle Paul's explanation that it is a plan of God to choose a people by which He could bring the offer of salvation to all people. Their sin of rejection of God allows Him to make a new covenant in order to offer the gift of eternal life also to those who were not chosen.
[b]For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
(John 3:16 NKJV)[/b]
Let's discuss if the jews is the god chosen people or not. If they are, then Jesus Christ is not a Messiah but a phoney. If they are wrong, and the christians are right, and Jesus is a legitimate Messiah.
Tell me, RJHinds, in your opinion, is the jewish people the chosen people of god?
26 Feb 14
Originally posted by FabianFnasWhen one uses a false premise like you do, one is likely to come to a false conclusion. In my opinion all Israel, 12 tribes, are the chosen people, including the Jews.
Paul doesn't know anything about making of the jewish state of Israel. Let's forget about him.
Let's discuss if the jews is the god chosen people or not. If they are, then Jesus Christ is not a Messiah but a phoney. If they are wrong, and the christians are right, and Jesus is a legitimate Messiah.
Tell me, RJHinds, in your opinion, is the jewish people the chosen people of god?
26 Feb 14
Originally posted by RJHindsSo you say that the jewish religion and the christian religion is in fact the same religion and are equally right? That Jesus Christ was the Messiah and in the same time wasn't?
When one uses a false premise like you do, one is likely to come to a false conclusion. In my opinion all Israel, 12 tribes, are the chosen people, including the Jews.
Please, explain, don't just disrespectfully say that I use a false premise, and then avoid the question I've posed altogether. I just want to know where I go wrong...
26 Feb 14
Originally posted by FabianFnasWhen you said you wanted to forget about Paul, the Messiah's apostle to the Gentiles, it appeared to me that you were not really interested in the truth of Christianity.
So you say that the jewish religion and the christian religion is in fact the same religion and are equally right? That Jesus Christ was the Messiah and in the same time wasn't?
Please, explain, don't just disrespectfully say that I use a false premise, and then avoid the question I've posed altogether. I just want to know where I go wrong...
Your premise was that if the Jews are the chosen people, then Jesus Christ is not the Messiah but a phoney. I say that is a false premise because the Jews can be the chosen people and Jesus Christ can also be the Messiah.
26 Feb 14
Originally posted by RJHindsOh, of course. But Paul know nothing about the present day. And we are now, aren't we?
When you said you wanted to forget about Paul, the Messiah's apostle to the Gentiles, it appeared to me that you were not really interested in the truth of Christianity.
Your premise was that if the Jews are the chosen people, then Jesus Christ is not the Messiah but a phoney. I say that is a false premise because the Jews can be the chosen people and Jesus Christ can also be the Messiah.
So you say that the jewish peopl is the chosen people by god. that means in my head the chosen people has a special relationship to god, right?
If a christian doesn't believe in the divinity of Jesus then he is not loved by god and this will show clearly if he will enter the pearly gate, right?
But the jewish people don't give a damn about Jesus. And is still the chosen people by god himself?
If the jewish people is gods #1, then the christian people must be #2, right? Wouldn't it be easier to earn the salvation if we all, christians (catholics as well as protestants) just converted to judaism, right? And the muslims too?
My questions are serious. Therefore when you say that the jews are right and wrong at the same time, that puzzles me.
26 Feb 14
Originally posted by FabianFnasI quoted some of what the apostle Paul said on this subject. Perhaps you should read all the New testament for yourself. I am not trained as a theologian. I am only a Christian because of my belief. Therefore, it is not likely that I would be able to convince you of your false beliefs. Perhaps, sonship might be a better source of help than me. Maybe, he will help you.
Oh, of course. But Paul know nothing about the present day. And we are now, aren't we?
So you say that the jewish peopl is the chosen people by god. that means in my head the chosen people has a special relationship to god, right?
If a christian doesn't believe in the divinity of Jesus then he is not loved by god and this will show clearly if he will ...[text shortened]... ous. Therefore when you say that the jews are right and wrong at the same time, that puzzles me.
26 Feb 14
Originally posted by RJHindsPlease, don't call me ignorant, don't say that I have false beliefs, don't disrespect me.
I quoted some of what the apostle Paul said on this subject. Perhaps you should read all the New testament for yourself. I am not trained as a theologian. I am only a Christian because of my belief. Therefore, it is not likely that I would be able to convince you of your false beliefs. Perhaps, sonship might be a better source of help than me. Maybe, he will help you.
Because if you do, I cannot respect you.
I ask you because I want to know. For me it is a paradox. If it is not for you, then you can explain it. If you cannot, then it is a paradox for you too. And then you are as ignorant as you say I am.
I turned to you, because I thought you would know, and I respect your knowledge. You are after all the instructor, right? So I ask you.