Originally posted by no1marauderI can't imagine why anyone would think salvation can be anything other than a gift from God. Your whole life is a gift . If you did not create yourself how can you save yourself? Nobody can do anything without God's power and help , Jesus said as much.
I don't see much in the Synoptic Gospels about trusting in Jesus for your salvation; do you?
I am somewhat skeptical about John as it was written much later and you can already see the emergence of certain doctrines that are absent from the prior Gospels which are clearly interrelated. Thus, I tend to view Matthew, Mark and Luke as more definitive about Christ's teaching than John and certainly more so than the Paulian letters.
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Has anyone noticed yet how the idea of this simple gift seems to create such a stir? It's like we just find it offensive somehow or we are looking for the catch. It seems to go against our human standards of having to "earn" something or work for it. Mind you , don't expect God to conform to the way the world does things. The truth always seems wierd at first.
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Originally posted by knightmeisterLook, all the "not theists" are trying to get you to admit is that accepting salvation is nothing like accepting a glass of water. Given our examples of a glass of water located half way around the world, and free gifts we have not been told exist or that require the belief in the unbelievable...can you not see the point we are trying to make?
Has anyone noticed yet how the idea of this simple gift seems to create such a stir? It's like we just find it offensive somehow or we are looking for the catch. It seems to go against our human standards of having to "earn" something or work for it. Mind you , don't expect God to conform to the way the world does things. The truth always seems wierd at first.
It may be (or was) easy for you to accept because for whatever reason you wanted to believe, but I (and many others like me) do not see a reason to believe in an invisible deity on the off chance we may or may not receive some gift upon our death. Does that really seem so strange?
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Originally posted by knightmeisterHo-hum. Do you understand that a dialogue requires some attempt to respond to the points in another's posts? Please actually do so rather than proselytize.
I can't imagine why anyone would think salvation can be anything other than a gift from God. Your whole life is a gift . If you did not create yourself how can you save yourself? Nobody can do anything without God's power and help , Jesus said as much.
EDIT: I dispute that my "whole life is a gift". That requires a giver.
What exactly is "saving yourself"?
"Nobody can do anything without God's power and help" is a clearly incorrect statement. Hitler did a lot of things; were they with God's power and help?
Originally posted by no1marauder"Nobody can do anything without God's power and help" is a clearly incorrect statement. Hitler did a lot of things; were they with God's power and help?---marauder---
Ho-hum. Do you understand that a dialogue requires some attempt to respond to the points in another's posts? Please actually do so rather than proselytize.
EDIT: I dispute that my "whole life is a gift". That requires a giver.
What exactly is "saving yourself"?
"Nobody can do anything without God's power and help" is a clearly incorrect statement. Hitler did a lot of things; were they with God's power and help?
..and what he did was worse than nothing....point made.
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Originally posted by no1marauderDo you understand that a dialogue requires some attempt to respond to the points in another's posts? Please actually do so rather than proselytize. ---marauder----
Ho-hum. Do you understand that a dialogue requires some attempt to respond to the points in another's posts? Please actually do so rather than proselytize.
EDIT: I dispute that my "whole life is a gift". That requires a giver.
What exactly is "saving yourself"?
"Nobody can do anything without God's power and help" is a clearly incorrect statement. Hitler did a lot of things; were they with God's power and help?
Once you start showing me you can do anything other than just snipe and find pedantic faults then I might have a dialogue. Also I seem to remember you calling me a retard once and I don't remember an apology either so don't go lecturing me on the niceties of respectful debating.
I could have a dialogue but would you listen??
Originally posted by TheSkipperIt may be (or was) easy for you to accept because for whatever reason you wanted to believe, but I (and many others like me) do not see a reason to believe in an invisible deity on the off chance we may or may not receive some gift upon our death. Does that really seem so strange?----skipper----
Look, all the "not theists" are trying to get you to admit is that accepting salvation is nothing like accepting a glass of water. Given our examples of a glass of water located half way around the world, and free gifts we have not been told exist or that require the belief in the unbelievable...can you not see the point we are trying to make?
It may ...[text shortened]... chance we may or may not receive some gift upon our death. Does that really seem so strange?
Not at all strange skip, however your perceptions are severly skewed and I bet the God you don't believe in bears little resemblance to the real one. No -one is asking you to believe something you don't believe or believe it because you might get the gift. I guarantee you belief is not easy nor is accepting the gift and there are also times when I don't want God to exist but I guess you can't understand that.
Originally posted by knightmeisterI don't care if you adopt a "respectful" tone or not. But simply ignoring the points that others raise in order to just parrot the same ole "Praise Jesus/Super Duper God" thingy makes a mockery of a forum.
Do you understand that a dialogue requires some attempt to respond to the points in another's posts? Please actually do so rather than proselytize. ---marauder----
Once you start showing me you can do anything other than just snipe and find pedantic faults then I might have a dialogue. Also I seem to remember you calling me a retard once and I don't ...[text shortened]... me on the niceties of respectful debating.
I could have a dialogue but would you listen??
Originally posted by no1marauderI dispute that my "whole life is a gift". That requires a giver. ---marauder-----
Ho-hum. Do you understand that a dialogue requires some attempt to respond to the points in another's posts? Please actually do so rather than proselytize.
EDIT: I dispute that my "whole life is a gift". That requires a giver.
What exactly is "saving yourself"?
"Nobody can do anything without God's power and help" is a clearly incorrect statement. Hitler did a lot of things; were they with God's power and help?
If you don't understand the role gratitude plays in spirituality you know very little. Life itself is a gift , don't you get it? Even if there is no giver we should still be grateful just for existing.
Originally posted by no1marauderI dispute that my "whole life is a gift". That requires a giver. ---marauder-----
Ho-hum. Do you understand that a dialogue requires some attempt to respond to the points in another's posts? Please actually do so rather than proselytize.
EDIT: I dispute that my "whole life is a gift". That requires a giver.
What exactly is "saving yourself"?
"Nobody can do anything without God's power and help" is a clearly incorrect statement. Hitler did a lot of things; were they with God's power and help?
If you don't understand the role gratitude plays in spirituality you know very little. Life itself is a gift , don't you get it? Even if there is no giver we should still be grateful just for existing.
Originally posted by knightmeisterI don't know what being "grateful" means in such a context. If one believes that one is part of the Great Unity, then you have no reason to be grateful and no one to be grateful to.
I dispute that my "whole life is a gift". That requires a giver. ---marauder-----
If you don't understand the role gratitude plays in spirituality you know very little. Life itself is a gift , don't you get it? Even if there is no giver we should still be grateful just for existing.
Originally posted by knightmeisterIf, after reading Tolkien's Fellowship of the Rings trilogy, somebody told you that all you need to do to recieve eternal life was believe Gandalf the White actually exists and he was offering you this great gift no strings attached...would you do it? COULD you do it?
It may be (or was) easy for you to accept because for whatever reason you wanted to believe, but I (and many others like me) do not see a reason to believe in an invisible deity on the off chance we may or may not receive some gift upon our death. Does that really seem so strange?----skipper----
Not at all strange skip, however your perceptions are ...[text shortened]... d there are also times when I don't want God to exist but I guess you can't understand that.
Please, please, please, tell me why it makes any more sense for me to accept an invisible gift of salvation from an invisible god than it does for you to accept same from Gandalf the White?
Originally posted by TheSkipperLess; I've seen Gandalf the White (though he looked a lot like Magneto).
If, after reading Tolkien's Fellowship of the Rings trilogy, somebody told you that all you need to do to recieve eternal life was believe Gandalf the White actually exists and he was offering you this great gift no strings attached...would you do it? COULD you do it?
Please, please, please, tell me why it makes any more sense for me to accept an invis ...[text shortened]... of salvation from an invisible god than it does for you to accept same from Gandalf the White?
