Originally posted by no1marauder I don't care if you adopt a "respectful" tone or not. But simply ignoring the points that others raise in order to just parrot the same ole "Praise Jesus/Super Duper God" thingy makes a mockery of a forum.
Don't pigeon hole me into the fundie brigade. I rarely use scripture and try and use logical argument to back up my points. Anyone who knows what I write knows that I am no Billy Graham. I don't ignore anyone's points , I just give as good as I get. I expect no quarter and will give none.
Originally posted by knightmeister "You cannot be 'pure' enough or humble enough to earn it...The ONLY part we play is being humble enough to accept it and receive it." -------------------KM--------
Just because you choose not to think of it as a condition doesn't mean it isn't.---------- ToOne---------------------
RESPONSE------
I 'm surprised . I thought you might understand e not thought this through yourself - it's pretty clear isn't it? Come on!)
Just trying to keep it real.
You know as well as I do that there are any number of conditions that apply depending on what brand of "Christianity" is being sold.
Accept this free gift. In order to accept this free gift:
You must be baptised.
You must believe in Jesus (in all the various concepts of what that means).
You must believe that Jesus was raised from the dead.
You must call upon the name of the Lord.
This is a limited time offer. Other terms and conditions may apply.
Originally posted by knightmeister Don't pigeon hole me into the fundie brigade. I rarely use scripture and try and use logical argument to back up my points. Anyone who knows what I write knows that I am no Billy Graham. I don't ignore anyone's points , I just give as good as I get. I expect no quarter and will give none.
Whether you use Scripture or not, your posts at the beginning of this thread don't make any logical arguments and are mere prosleytizing.
Originally posted by no1marauder Whether you use Scripture or not, your posts at the beginning of this thread don't make any logical arguments and are mere prosleytizing.
What rubbish! There's lots of debate and argument in my points. Do you mean that I haven't said why it is a free gift?
My intention was not to proselytise since my post was directed just as much at theists as atheists. Me thinks you read too much into things. I'm simply trying to establish that grace (and the self giving love behind that grace) is a very different way of thinking than that we are used to. We are trained to think there must be something we must do or something we must be , we just can't accept unconditional love.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne Just trying to keep it real.
You know as well as I do that there are any number of conditions that apply depending on what brand of "Christianity" is being sold.
[b]Accept this free gift. In order to accept this free gift:
You must be baptised.
You must believe in Jesus (in all the various concepts of what that means).
You must believe that Jes ...[text shortened]... e name of the Lord.
This is a limited time offer. Other terms and conditions may apply.[/b]
So you do agree then that humbly accepting the gift is not a true condition that God places on offering the gift , he just offers it anyway and waits to see if we will accept it? Thus God's offer to us is infact unconditional even if it requires humility to accept it?
Originally posted by knightmeister So you do agree then that humbly accepting the gift is not a true condition that God places on offering the gift , he just offers it anyway and waits to see if we will accept it? Thus God's offer to us is infact unconditional even if it requires humility to accept it?
You see , you didn't say ....
Actually, I thought I did say.
While it sounds good to try to summarize it by saying that it's a 'free gift' without conditions, the reality is that there are some very real conditions in accepting the gift as listed in my previous post.
Perhaps instead of "unconditional", you might want to say "offer will not be rescinded under any circumstances other than death".
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne Just trying to keep it real.
You know as well as I do that there are any number of conditions that apply depending on what brand of "Christianity" is being sold.
[b]Accept this free gift. In order to accept this free gift:
You must be baptised.
You must believe in Jesus (in all the various concepts of what that means).
You must believe that Jes ...[text shortened]... e name of the Lord.
This is a limited time offer. Other terms and conditions may apply.[/b]
Note that you said "in order to accept" ...this means that the offer is still unconditional NOT conditional. God offers the gift of salvation through faith in Christ and what he has done for us. Faith in Christ's covering sacrifice is the same as just plain old accepting the gift.
The basic acceptance of the gift requires that we believe that God has given us this gift (jesus). Various "brands" of christianity sometimes distract from this by making out that we need special rituals like baptism which although good are not essential. Or they might make membership a requirement (ref trey trumpets thread) or both.
However , mainstream Christian faith says that Christ has earned our salvation for us and offers it to us as a gift. We either have faith in this and gratefully accept it or we don't (in the hope that somehow God will look kindly on us because we are humble?) . If we go to God and say "look at me , and how humble I am compared to Mr X" is God fooled? Far better to just say "thanks God for giving me something that I could never attain by my own means. "
Here's a thought experiment on grace---Do you think that if you become more humble then God loves you more?
Originally posted by knightmeister Note that you said "in order to accept" ...this means that the offer is still unconditional NOT conditional. God offers the gift of salvation through faith in Christ and what he has done for us. Faith in Christ's covering sacrifice is the same as just plain old accepting the gift.
The basic acceptance of the gift requires that we believe that God ...[text shortened]... iment on grace---Do you think that if you become more humble then God loves you more?
Where I come from, ""in order to accept" is unequivocally conditional. I can't even imagine a scenario where it isn't.
How about a different 'free gift of salvation'. Satan has earned your salvation. You need only have faith in Satan and humbly accept your free gift. Are you willing to accept this generous offer?
I wouldn't think that God would love anyone "more" for being humble. However I think that it immensely increases one's chances of putting the ways of God, i.e., love, compassion, justice, etc. ahead of the desires of one's self. It immensely increases one's chances of following the teachings of Jesus. As a matter of fact, I'm thinking it's the number one stumbling block for those who struggle to follow.
Originally posted by knightmeister Note that you said "in order to accept" ...this means that the offer is still unconditional NOT conditional.
I think that the conditions under which a gift can be accepted are part and parcel of the offer and therefore the gift is NOT unconditional. For example I am hereby offering you an unconditional free gift of 1 million dollars. In order to accept that gift you must pay me 2 million dollars as an "acceptance fee".
If God offers say "life after death" unconditionally, then requiring anything from me in order to "accept" said gift is essentially a condition of the gift as much as a condition of the acceptance. In fact I would go as far as to say that there is no such thing as an unconditional gift that is not forced upon someone as for it not to be forced, acceptance is a necessary condition. If acceptance has attendant conditions then they too are conditions of the gift.
Originally posted by twhitehead I think that the conditions under which a gift can be accepted are part and parcel of the offer and therefore the gift is NOT unconditional. For example I am hereby offering you an unconditional free gift of 1 million dollars. In order to accept that gift you must pay me 2 million dollars as an "acceptance fee".
If God offers say "life after death" uncon ondition. If acceptance has attendant conditions then they too are conditions of the gift.
If God offers say "life after death" unconditionally, then requiring anything from me in order to "accept" said gift is essentially a condition of the gift as much as a condition of the acceptance.---whitey----
LOL!!!! He doesn't require anything at all of you "IN ORDER" to accept the gift....you just either accept it or you don't. There is no condition of the acceptance other than the acceptance. Accepting the gift is just accepting the gift.
God is not requiring anything of you in the sense you think he is. He just yearns for you to just accept his gift of love.
Acceptance is not a condition that God places upon you , it's just the way it is. If I buy you a drink then opening your mouth and putting the glass to your mouth is not a condition that I require of you at all , it's just that the sheer mechanics of the situation mean that you can't enjoy my gift without drinking it. It's just the essential truth of the situation and does not detract from my generosity.
Originally posted by twhitehead I think that the conditions under which a gift can be accepted are part and parcel of the offer and therefore the gift is NOT unconditional. For example I am hereby offering you an unconditional free gift of 1 million dollars. In order to accept that gift you must pay me 2 million dollars as an "acceptance fee".
If God offers say "life after death" uncon ...[text shortened]... ondition. If acceptance has attendant conditions then they too are conditions of the gift.
For example I am hereby offering you an unconditional free gift of 1 million dollars. In order to accept that gift you must pay me 2 million dollars as an "acceptance fee". ---whitey-----
Is that really a fair comparison? Listen to yourself here. God is hereby offering us the free gift of eternal life. What do we have to do? Just accept the gift. No fees , no catches, no "works" , just a gift. We don't have to pay him anything. Infact there is nothing you can offer him that is not his already.
it's a gift.....
16 Oct '07 09:46
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