14 Oct 07
When is the penny going to drop? I hear theists and atheists make the same mistake over and over again. All this talk of "earning" heaven and being "rewarded" or being "good enough". Hoops that have to be jumped through and criteria to be fulfilled etc etc.
Let's clear this up. Heaven (salvation) is a gift. You cannot buy it or gain it through good favour with God. There's no cheque big enough you can write to get it. You cannot be 'pure' enough or humble enough to earn it (as if God will look at your humility and think you are worth a place) NO NO NO NO
Heaven is a gift from God , he gives it to us freely and unconditionally. The ONLY part we play is being humble enough to accept it and receive it.
It 's THAT simple , so simple we just don't get it. We somehow complicate it by imagining God has to see some kind of performance or something.
(BTW- Don't think that accepting a free gift is as easy as it might sound)
14 Oct 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterLuke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
When is the penny going to drop? I hear theists and atheists make the same mistake over and over again. All this talk of "earning" heaven and being "rewarded" or being "good enough". Hoops that have to be jumped through and criteria to be fulfilled etc etc.
Let's clear this up. Heaven (salvation) is a gift. You cannot buy it or gain it through goo ...[text shortened]... ing.
(BTW- Don't think that accepting a free gift is as easy as it might sound)
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
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Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 Oct 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterI hear you say that it's "unconditional" at one turn, but in the next you spell out the conditions that are required. While it's probably comforting to believe it, Jesus seems to be saying something very different. I look at what Jesus asks and am continually baffled as to why Christians don't just FOLLOW His teachings. They act like actually following his teachings would RUIN their life or something. The Truth is that it would make everyone's life BETTER. It's just not the self-centered lifestyle that people are DELUDED into preferring.
When is the penny going to drop? I hear theists and atheists make the same mistake over and over again. All this talk of "earning" heaven and being "rewarded" or being "good enough". Hoops that have to be jumped through and criteria to be fulfilled etc etc.
Let's clear this up. Heaven (salvation) is a gift. You cannot buy it or gain it through goo ...[text shortened]... ing.
(BTW- Don't think that accepting a free gift is as easy as it might sound)
14 Oct 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterWow! It's so cool that you have this information that no one else has!
When is the penny going to drop? I hear theists and atheists make the same mistake over and over again. All this talk of "earning" heaven and being "rewarded" or being "good enough". Hoops that have to be jumped through and criteria to be fulfilled etc etc.
Let's clear this up. Heaven (salvation) is a gift. You cannot buy it or gain it through goo ...[text shortened]... ing.
(BTW- Don't think that accepting a free gift is as easy as it might sound)
15 Oct 07
Originally posted by SwissGambitNot at all , if one does not accept the gift then what do you think happens? Just because salvation is a free gift doesn't mean that everyone accepts it. If you go round a shopping mall with a briefcase full of money and try and give it away there will always be those who will refuse or think "what's the catch?".
So that 'hell' place/thing/condition is just a figment of our imagination?
15 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI hear you say that it's "unconditional" at one turn, but in the next you spell out the conditions that are required. Think of One------
I hear you say that it's "unconditional" at one turn, but in the next you spell out the conditions that are required. While it's probably comforting to believe it, Jesus seems to be saying something very different. I look at what Jesus asks and am continually baffled as to why Christians don't just FOLLOW His teachings. They act like actually following hi ...[text shortened]... ETTER. It's just not the self-centered lifestyle that people are DELUDED into preferring.
How so? Yes , one must accept the gift in order to receive it but it's hardly a condition in the normal sense of the word. If I offer you a free drink out of my own generosity I am offering it unconditionally , period. Whether you drink it or not is not a condition of mine at all because all I can do is place the drink in front of you , no questions asked and then persuade you to drink it.
It's a completely free gift of mine offered with no strings but I cannot ram the drink down your throat. It is not a condition of mine that you humbly drink it because I offer it anyway. I do not say " if you show me you are humble enough to receive this drink then I will offer it to you" (conditions) . Infact I say " here is this drink, please drink it you will like it" (unconditional)
God offers the drink even to those who he suspects will refuse it.
15 Oct 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterThat is a fantastic way of describing it...i cant explain things to well and that was spot on...it is a GIFT..how can people refuse a gift that is GOOD???
I hear you say that it's "unconditional" at one turn, but in the next you spell out the conditions that are required. Think of One------
How so? Yes , one must accept the gift in order to receive it but it's hardly a condition in the normal sense of the word. If I offer you a free drink out of my own generosity I am offering it unconditionally , per ...[text shortened]... conditional)
God offers the drink even to those who he suspects will refuse it.
Thanks for that Knightmeister!!!
15 Oct 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterYou say it is unconditional then you capitalize the word "ONLY" in the condition which itself is dependent on other well known conditions namely:
Heaven is a gift from God , he gives it to us freely and unconditionally. The ONLY part we play is being humble enough to accept it and receive it.
1. A belief that God exists.
2. A declaration that he exists and that you have "faith" in him (whatever that means).
3. An understanding of what it is all about in the first place.
I am sure that there is a man somewhere in Africa who has unconditionally offered you 1 million US dollars. The ONLY part you play is being humble enough to accept it and receive it.
15 Oct 07
Originally posted by Jay JoosPeople can refuse anything if they do not understand what they are refusing. Even worse, people can hardly be said to even be refusing if they do not believe that they have been offered something in the first place.
That is a fantastic way of describing it...i cant explain things to well and that was spot on...it is a GIFT..how can people refuse a gift that is GOOD???
When is the penny going to drop? I hear theists make the same mistake over and over again. Non-theists do not reject God, nor do they reject offers of gifts from God, they simply do not believe in God and therefore do not believe that there is anything to reject. I do not think that there is a single sane human being who has ever believed that there is a God who has offered unconditionally a truly good gift and has rejected that gift.
15 Oct 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadI am sure that there is a man somewhere in Africa who has unconditionally offered you 1 million US dollars. The ONLY part you play is being humble enough to accept it and receive it.
You say it is unconditional then you capitalize the word "ONLY" in the condition which itself is dependent on other well known conditions namely:
1. A belief that God exists.
2. A declaration that he exists and that you have "faith" in him (whatever that means).
3. An understanding of what it is all about in the first place.
I am sure that there is ...[text shortened]... llion US dollars. The ONLY part you play is being humble enough to accept it and receive it.
---whitey----
I am prepared to believe you. How certain are you ? Is the offer still open to me? I am prepared to be humble and receive this million dollars , can you help me get in touch? If all I have to do is go and pick it up then that is genrous indeed!
15 Oct 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou say it is unconditional then you capitalize the word "ONLY" in the condition which itself is dependent on other well known conditions ---WHITEY---
You say it is unconditional then you capitalize the word "ONLY" in the condition which itself is dependent on other well known conditions namely:
1. A belief that God exists.
2. A declaration that he exists and that you have "faith" in him (whatever that means).
3. An understanding of what it is all about in the first place.
I am sure that there is ...[text shortened]... llion US dollars. The ONLY part you play is being humble enough to accept it and receive it.
You confuse conditions with the mechanisms by which one can receive the gift. If I offer you a free drink and put it in front of you then short of pouring it down your throat via a funnel there's not a lot more I can do. It's hardly a "condition" that you have to drink it to get the benefits. Of course, you have to have at least some belief that the drink is there at all to receive the drink but even if you don't believe the drink is there , it is still there on the table anyway and always will be. Drinking the drink is not a condition on it being OFFERED because if I am generous I will just buy you a drink regardless , but drinking the drink IS a condition on the drink being RECEIVED.
When one finally figures out what the offer is and receive it, it's not as if God says " ...blimey , you took your time didn't you..!" ..it's more a case of "....at last...I'm so glad you are taking me up on my offer..receive it with joy"
(BTW- Are you playing fair today , or are you playing pedantic games like with Jay joos on the other thread?....just checking)
15 Oct 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadI do not think that there is a single sane human being who has ever believed that there is a God who has offered unconditionally a truly good gift and has rejected that gift.----whitey---
People can refuse anything if they do not understand what they are refusing. Even worse, people can hardly be said to even be refusing if they do not believe that they have been offered something in the first place.
When is the penny going to drop? I hear theists make the same mistake over and over again. Non-theists do not reject God, nor do they reje ...[text shortened]... hat there is a God who has offered unconditionally a truly good gift and has rejected that gift.
I think you might find a number of Christians (including myself) have turned down God's offer once or twice before accepting it. However , I do see you point about the connection between knowing and receiving. You can only receive something that you are aware of.
15 Oct 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterI rejected Gods gift many,many times before finally accepting it,and i have never looked back since!!!!
I do not think that there is a single sane human being who has ever believed that there is a God who has offered unconditionally a truly good gift and has rejected that gift.----whitey---
I think you might find a number of Christians (including myself) have turned down God's offer once or twice before accepting it. However , I do see you point about ...[text shortened]... connection between knowing and receiving. You can only receive something that you are aware of.