17 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOnePerhaps instead of "unconditional", you might want to say "offer will not be rescinded under any circumstances other than death".
Actually, I thought I did say.
While it sounds good to try to summarize it by saying that it's a 'free gift' without conditions, the reality is that there are some very real conditions in accepting the gift as listed in my previous post.
Perhaps instead of "unconditional", you might want to say "offer will not be rescinded under any circumstances other than death".
---think of one---
No , the offer is made unconditionally. You confuse the offer with the accepting bit. If accepting the offer was not required then it would not be an offer would it. God would simply take away our free will and just do it without asking us. We would not even be debating it then.
Back in the real world the offer has been made . Now the offer is unconditional , period. The second bit is about how God is trying to persuade us to accept the offer. He's trying all sorts of ways but pride/ego just gets in the way because we think we have to do something to get the gift (eg maybe if I follow christ's teachings then he will see I am a good person and save me). Meanwhile God does not want us to do anything at all. He's just urging us to accept the offer knowing that if we do he will transform us. He could of course not make it voluntary and force it on us all but then that might be disrespectful of our autonomy.
The offer itself is as unconditional as it possibly could be without completely taking our free will out of it. But then if I am going to force feed you my "gift" of a pint of beer through a funnel what's the point of making you an offer . I might as well just start pouring !!!
You know KM, I have read a bunch of your posts over the months, and I can say with reasonable confidence that you are not a moron, but you (and a number of our other resident theists) can't seem to get out of your own way on this issue.
You want to frame this alleged "gift of salvation" as the easiest most freely given gift I have ever been offered. However, you can't seem to see it from a "not theist" perspective. I will try...again.
As a "not theist", the following is metaphorical accounts of how I perceive the gift you are on about:
Theist: Are you going to get a free Diet Coke?
Me: What? Free Diet Coke? Yeah I want one! Where?
Theist: That invisible guy on the other side of campus is just handing them out, he is standing by the bell tower.
Me: Wait...invisible guy? How am I going to find him if I can't see him, much less dialogue with him enough to get a free Diet Coke?
Theist: Oh, that's easy. Just believe he is there and you will see him plain as day. He really wants to give you that Diet Coke, so hurry up!
Me: Uhhh...where is your Diet Coke?
Theist: It's invisible too.
Me: Can YOU see your Diet Coke?
Theist: Well, no; it’s an intangible Diet Coke so it can't really be seen, but I know it’s there.
Me: How?
Theist: The invisible guy told me he gave it to me.
Me: Does it taste good?
Theist: Can't taste it until I'm dead, but I have it on good authority that it is VERY tasty.
Me: Doesn't this sound a lot like self fulfilling prophecy and wishful thinking?
Theist: No.
Me: Why not?
Theist: The invisible guy told me it isn't.
Me: I see. What if I don't believe in invisible guys that hand out Diet Cokes unless I have some evidence they exist?
Theist: Then you won't be able to see him, and you won't get your Diet Coke. If you believe in invisible guy you will have all the evidence you need.
Me: I need the evidence first, otherwise I can't believe.
Theist: Why are you being so stubborn?
Me: Well, you just asked me to completely change my world view so that I can receive a gift that I won't know I have until I die. I think I'm being reasonable, not stubborn.
Theist: You’re making this way too complicated, but I love you, and so does invisible guy.
Me: Uhhh...thanks. I'll see ya around.
So you see? There is nothing simple about it from my perspective. Is it possible that God simply didn't choose me to believe in Him, and if you were to convince me of his existence it would actually go against His will?
17 Oct 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterHe is trying all sorts of ways? Really?! Why hasn’t he come up with a more direct approach? If he were to approach me as a glowing ball of pure energy, speak in a booming voice (accompanied by lightning), bring my dead cat back to life before my eyes, and then ask me if I want eternal life you can be damn sure I would accept the gift.
The second bit is about how God is trying to persuade us to accept the offer. He's trying all sorts of ways but pride/ego just gets in the way because we think we have to do something to get the gift (eg maybe if I follow christ's teachings then he will see I am a good person and save me).
But he does not do that, does he? Instead, He chooses to be coy, instructs his followers to write a bunch of books with vague instructions about how to behave and some bloody, god awful (pardon the pun) stories about the F****'d up things He instructs His followers to do when He is angry (read: Old Testament).
No friend, if God is trying to convince me to accept His gift He either isn't trying very hard or isn't capable of proving His existence. I want nothing to do with such a God.
17 Oct 07
Originally posted by TheSkipperNo friend, if God is trying to convince me to accept His gift He either isn't trying very hard or isn't capable of proving His existence. I want nothing to do with such a God-----SKIPPER------
He is trying all sorts of ways? Really?! Why hasn’t he come up with a more direct approach? If he were to approach me as a glowing ball of pure energy, speak in a booming voice (accompanied by lightning), bring my dead cat back to life before my eyes, and then ask me if I want eternal life you can be damn sure I would accept the gift.
But he does not ...[text shortened]... g very hard or isn't capable of proving His existence. I want nothing to do with such a God.
Why don't you ask him to do something in your life ? He might do the ball of energy thing but then again it might be more subtle. He might help you to become aware of his presence if you could be still enough.
17 Oct 07
2 edits
Originally posted by knightmeisterI know you really want to think of it as "unconditional", but the fact remains that it's conditional. It baffles me as to why you have such a blind spot about this. Perhaps it's because you so want it to be true. Seriously, you've lost perspective on this one.
Perhaps instead of "unconditional", you might want to say "offer will not be rescinded under any circumstances other than death".
---think of one---
No , the offer is made unconditionally. You confuse the offer with the accepting bit. If accepting the offer was not required then it would not be an offer would it. God would simply take away our free unnel what's the point of making you an offer . I might as well just start pouring !!!
I noticed that you completely ignored the following from my previous post:
"How about a different 'free gift of salvation'. Satan has earned your salvation. You need only have faith in Satan and humbly accept your free gift. Are you willing to accept this generous offer?"
I would think that you'd decline and with good reason. I wouldn't think that they are terms that you'd be willing to accept.
17 Oct 07
2 edits
Originally posted by TheSkipperSo you see? There is nothing simple about it from my perspective. Is it possible that God simply didn't choose me to believe in Him, and if you were to convince me of his existence it would actually go against His will?---------------------------------------skipper---
You know KM, I have read a bunch of your posts over the months, and I can say with reasonable confidence that you are not a moron, but you (and a number of our other resident theists) can't seem to get out of your own way on this issue.
You want to frame this alleged "gift of salvation" as the easiest most freely given gift I have ever been offered. H e to convince me of his existence it would actually go against His will?
I totally dig where you are coming from. I've been in a similar place myself. I get the diet coke thing , but I don't think it's entirely accurate. God does make specific promises and assurances to those who seek him. In my view God can be known but it's just that we have to be open to ways of knowing we didn't expect. You are quite right to be cynical and expect God to prove himself but then again God may have different ideas about how he might do that. I don't think that God chose you to not believe in him at all.
One thing you could try would be to investigate the concept of the living Christ. Christ said that we would know his presence and know the truth. God wants to prove himself to you in his own way and although it may not be flashing lights it might be more personal than you think.
The problem is that you are in the dilemma of belief/faith versus evidence/testing God. In order to ask God to do something in your life you need to at least have 1% faith that he might just do it (otherwise what's the point). You feel that God must do something first before you have that 1% - it's a catch 22 situation. However , something inside you wants to find out otherwise you wouldn't be so angry about it.
Another thing you could try is just being still and asking God to be present with you and see what happens. The Bible says that in him we live and move and have our being. If this is true then God is right there all along , we just miss him.
17 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI know you really want to think of it as "unconditional", but the fact remains that it's conditional. It baffles me as to why you have such a blind spot about this. Perhaps it's because you so want it to be true. Seriously, you've lost perspective on this one. ----think of One-----
I know you really want to think of it as "unconditional", but the fact remains that it's conditional. It baffles me as to why you have such a blind spot about this. Perhaps it's because you so want it to be true. Seriously, you've lost perspective on this one.
I noticed that you completely ignored the following from my previous post:
[b]"How about a ...[text shortened]... h good reason. I wouldn't think that they are terms that you'd be willing to accept.
Let me ask you this. From what I have said what conditions has God said need to be fulfilled before the offer of the gift of salvation is given to us? As far as I can see the offer is on the table and always has been. I don't remember God saying "hmmm...I'm not going to send Jesus to die for you UNLESS you x,y,z..."
I seem to remember he just did it without even asking us and the intention was to offer the gift "before the foundations of the world". So how can there be conditions on the offer? There may be the sheer fact that we do need to accept the gift (what a surprise!) but beyond that the offer has been made and always was going to be made . Why did God offer the free gift? I don't know. Maybe because he loves us?
17 Oct 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterindeed. If you don't commit to the belief, where is the belief? Where is the positive feedback going to come from if you don't accept it could be positive in the first place?
In order to ask God to do something in your life you need to at least have 1% faith that he might just do it (otherwise what's the point)?
17 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI noticed that you completely ignored the following from my previous post:
I know you really want to think of it as "unconditional", but the fact remains that it's conditional. It baffles me as to why you have such a blind spot about this. Perhaps it's because you so want it to be true. Seriously, you've lost perspective on this one.
I noticed that you completely ignored the following from my previous post:
[b]"How about a h good reason. I wouldn't think that they are terms that you'd be willing to accept.
"How about a different 'free gift of salvation'. Satan has earned your salvation. You need only have faith in Satan and humbly accept your free gift. Are you willing to accept this generous offer?"
---THINK OF ONE------------
Why are you so against the unconditional love of God? I had made you out to be a man of spiritual insight. Don't you understand grace , love , beauty. Don't you understand why it is so important that we realise we can't earn it. How can salvation be anything else than a free gift , just as life is a gift? Is the idea so scandalous to you or offensive? If you don't understand the abundance of God's love (whether in the christian context or not) then you know less than I thought you did. To be loved unconditionally and with abundance is what we are all looking for.
BTW- Satan cannot offer me salvation , he doesn't have the power and he doesn't love me as far as I know.
18 Oct 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterHmm. And yet, for someone allegedly so self-assured at the start of the thread, you still stop to give yourself public pats on the back during it. Tell me, what's the point of your grandstanding?
You've got it the wrong way round. I knew I was right before the controversy started and fully expected one. Your comment probably says more about you than me.
18 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI know you really want to think of it as "unconditional", but the fact remains that it's conditional. It baffles me as to why you have such a blind spot about this. Perhaps it's because you so want it to be true. Seriously, you've lost perspective on this one.
I know you really want to think of it as "unconditional", but the fact remains that it's conditional. It baffles me as to why you have such a blind spot about this. Perhaps it's because you so want it to be true. Seriously, you've lost perspective on this one.
I noticed that you completely ignored the following from my previous post:
"How about a h good reason. I wouldn't think that they are terms that you'd be willing to accept.
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). Do you believe this is true? If it is true, then it must also be true that without God's mercy and grace absolutely nobody can inherit eternal life (Eph. 2:8). But, if you claim that some people are worthy to be saved - because of their deeds - then you would be making God out to be a liar (1 John 1:10). God is not a liar (Titus 1:2). Based on the fact that God is not a liar, we can establish confidently that nobody is worthy of eternal life, and we must therefore conclude that God's mercy is our only hope for salvation (Rom. 5:2).
Is God's mercy dependent upon the good deeds we perform? That is, what prerequisite does God demand from us in order to receive His mercy? Do we stand a better chance of "catching His eye" if we are diligently "good" people? No, absolutely not, even while we are shameless sinners God does what is necessary to save us - God's mercy and grace are not bestowed upon us based on any fleshly merit (Eph. 2:5). (Of course, if it were based on our own merit, then nobody would be saved.) If we cannot merit salvation in and of ourselves (Rom. 3:23), and if we cannot do anything in our power to make ourselves worthy of receiving salvation (Eph. 2), then we can say with great assurance that anyone who does inherit eternal life could only have received it as an absolutely free gift, without exception (Rom. 5:15).
God refuses only those who refuse His free gift.
18 Oct 07
Originally posted by epiphinehas...which is why it's not really 'free'. God is both the giver of the 'gift' and the executor of the punishment if the 'gift' is refused. The whole reason we allegedly need the 'gift' is because of God's intolerance of even the slightest sin in the first place.
God refuses only those who refuse His free gift.
18 Oct 07
Originally posted by SwissGambitWhat grandstanding ? Sometimes I'm not convinced about my threads other times I am . This was one where I knew that I knew my stuff.
Hmm. And yet, for someone allegedly so self-assured at the start of the thread, you still stop to give yourself public pats on the back during it. Tell me, what's the point of your grandstanding?
18 Oct 07
Originally posted by SwissGambit...which is why it's not really 'free'. God is both the giver of the 'gift' and the executor of the punishment if the 'gift' is refused -----swiss------
...which is why it's not really 'free'. God is both the giver of the 'gift' and the executor of the punishment if the 'gift' is refused. The whole reason we allegedly need the 'gift' is because of God's intolerance of even the slightest sin in the first place.
Wrong again. Refusing the gift is it's own punishment. If I offer you a drink and you refuse it , who is executing your resulting thirst? Me or You? God doesn't punish you "because" you refuse the gift , if you refuse the gift then you have punished yourself. If you refuse to spend eternity with God then you will spend it somewhere else.
18 Oct 07
Originally posted by snowinscotlandAgreed , but there is no need to make it an all or nothing issue. If you offer God 1% belief he might give you back the same or even more than you expected. I have seen people take very small steps in faith or make small committments only to find they have opened the door to all sorts of things.
indeed. If you don't commit to the belief, where is the belief? Where is the positive feedback going to come from if you don't accept it could be positive in the first place?