1. Joined
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    24 Nov '05 14:05
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    Actually, Clarence Jordan was a Baptist pastor.
    My apologies. I misunderstood. It was Rwingett that was atheist. I still don't think you need God to do good, which is my point... uhm...
  2. Donationkirksey957
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    24 Nov '05 14:08
    Originally posted by stocken
    My apologies. I misunderstood. It was Rwingett that was atheist. I still don't think you need God to do good, which is my point... uhm...
    One of the things I was hoping that this thread would do is remind us about how unique and glorious people are in their many ways of experiencing humanity and faith.
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    24 Nov '05 14:25
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    One of the things I was hoping that this thread would do is remind us about how unique and glorious people are in their many ways of experiencing humanity and faith.
    Yes, each individual carries with him/her both good and bad, and those of us who can find the balance and strength to do good (wether in fear of a God or not) deserve rememberence.

    This is a positive thread. I enjoy reading it. Not having english as a main language, forces me to read each post several times before I can understand them fully. Hope that's not a problem.
  4. Standard memberKellyJay
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    24 Nov '05 15:16
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    Thanks again for the history....it is amazing how people come and go, including Preachers, but the Word of God remains. I especially like this one..

    ""He who knows no hardships will know no hardiness. He who faces no calamity will need no courage. Mysterious though it is, the characteristics in human nature which we love best grow in a soil with a s ...[text shortened]... 119:71
    71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted, that I may learn Your statutes.
    (NKJ)
    I recall a story I heard when I first became a Christian in 1979. It
    was about two men walking through a forest after a powerful storm.
    One was a ranger, when they came upon a tree that had fallen over,
    the ranger was asked what was wrong with the tree that could cause
    such a thing. The reply was, it had gotten larger than its root system
    could support so it fell. The message associated with that story
    was much the same as I recall too. Preach the truth as you know
    it, and live it at a much deeper level. How the reality of that plays
    out I don't know, but it does make some sense to me.
    Kelly
  5. Standard memberKellyJay
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    24 Nov '05 15:20
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    Thanks kirksey...I never knew the origins of this clinic. I do now.
    The goodness of God seems overlooked at times. Look how He worked "in" these nuns, and doctors. There are many great institutions that were started by good Christian people. I'm afraid to say some are just the opposite today. Like some of our major universities....😉
    Shame that we allow our notions of how things should work to get in
    the way of great works, because the template isn't perfect in their
    own eyes. I could see some faith healers standing against
    that work, or some church state people standing against work too.
    Kelly
  6. R
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    24 Nov '05 15:25
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I recall a story I heard when I first became a Christian in 1979. It
    was about two men walking through a forest after a powerful storm.
    One was a ranger, when they came upon a tree that had fallen over,
    the ranger was asked what was wrong with the tree that could cause
    such a thing. The reply was, it had gotten larger than its root system
    could support ...[text shortened]... vel. How the reality of that plays
    out I don't know, but it does make some sense to me.
    Kelly
    Good story..makes lots of sense to me .We are called to be rooted and grounded in Christ. When we step out of that too far, we fall as well.
    Kind of like the house built on the sand. When the winds came....you know the rest.
    But I often wondered why that foolish man built it on sand. I was taught once that it was because he looked up at the blue sky, sunshine and beautiful. And he foolishly thought it would always be that way. He never was rooted or prepared for the storms. A wise lesson for all of us...stay rooted in Christ, and continue to grow in Him.🙂
  7. Donationkirksey957
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    25 Nov '05 03:02
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    Have you ever heard someone say "he just needs to go out in the woods and find himself"? My next addition did just that. He may be the least recognizable of the people in this forum, but I believe ultimately he will have one of the most profound impacts on our culture, especially for men.

    Bill Kauth, a social worker by training, went with severa ...[text shortened]... chapters in the UK and Europe, and even South Africa.

    For more information go to www.mkp.org.
    I wanted to say one other thing upon reflection. As I recall DoctorScribbles asked a question in another thread if it were possible for someone who is not a Christian to do the Lord's work/will. I have no idea what Kauth's faith tradition is or even if he has one, but I think he clearly represents someone doing "spiritual work."
  8. Donationkirksey957
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    09 Dec '05 13:37
    We hear a lot these days about the complicitus nature of the church during WW2. I hear more about the Catholic church, but protestant churches also turned a blind eye to the holocost. Our next addition paid dearly for his resistence to the Nazis.

    Dietrich Bonhoeffer's works are still considered to be standard for any theologcal library. Interestingly, he did not receive a lot of recognition from the Jewish community because he felt that they would eventually accept Jesus as the Messiah. Christians, on the other hand, tended to see his resistence to the Nazis as Christian martyrdom.

    Bonhoeffer was a memeber of the largest protestant denomination in Germany, the German Evangelical Church. During the rise of Hitler this denomination became more focused on nationalism and became mired in controversy to exclude non-Aryans from the ministry. Bonhoeffer felt this to be contrary to the gospel and began to splinter away from this group. He also sought to tell the world what was happening in Germany. He moved to London where he had a parish that became a haven for Jews. He also developed close ties to other resistence organizations. In 1935 he returned to Germany and witnessed the elimination of all civil rights for Jews.

    Bonhoeffer continued to write and teach and train young clergy. Eventually the Gestapo closed his school and arrested many of his students. The Gestapo continued to apply pressure. It was during these years that he sought to find what the practical role of the Christain was during times of persecution. He came to see Jews as the "brothers of Christians" and "children of the covenent." He wrote, "At the moment when the terrible persecution of the Jewish people in Germany and in other Central European countries has come to a violent climax, it is out duty to remind ourselves of the stand which we have taken as an ecumenical movement against anti-semitism in all its forms."

    Bonhoeffer was arrested in April of 1943. Initially he was going to be charged with corruption but upon deeper investigation his deeper commitment to the faith sealed his doom. In 1945 he was taken to Buchenwald and later to a concentration camp where he was hanged. Two other family members were also hanged.

    The SS doctor who witnessed his death later recalled a man "devout, brave and composed. His death ensued after a few seconds. I have hardly ever seen a man die so entirely submissive to the will of God."

    Bonhoeffer sent his final message to George Bell in England: "This is the end, for me the beginning of life."
  9. London
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    09 Dec '05 13:51
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    We hear a lot these days about the complicitus nature of the church during WW2. I hear more about the Catholic church, but protestant churches also turned a blind eye to the holocost. Our next addition paid dearly for his resistence to the Nazis.

    Dietrich Bonhoeffer's works are still considered to be standard for any theologcal library. Interesting ...[text shortened]... his final message to George Bell in England: "This is the end, for me the beginning of life."
    Thank you for that one.

    I'm reminded of Maximilian Kolbe. His story is famous, but is worth a retelling:

    His name wasn't always Maximilian. He was born the second son of a poor weaver on 8 January 1894 at Zdunska Wola near Lodz in Poland, and was given the baptismal name of Raymond.

    In 1907, Raymond and his elder brother entered a junior Franciscan seminary in Lwow. Here he excelled in mathematics and physics and his teachers predicted a brilliant future for him in science. Others, seeing his passionate interest in all things military, saw in him a future strategist. For a time indeed, his interest in military affairs together with his fiery patriotism made him lose interest in the idea of becoming a priest. The fulfilment of his dream would lie in saving Poland from her oppressors as a soldier. But before he could tell anyone about his decision his mother announced that, as all their children were now in seminaries, she and her husband intended to enter religious life. Raymond hadn't the heart to upset his parents' plans and so he abandoned his plans for joining the army. He was recieved as a novice in September 1910 and with the habit he took the new name of Maximilian. From 1912 to 1915, he was in Rome studying philosophy at the Gregorian College, and from 1915 to 1919 theology at the Collegio Serafico. He was ordained in Rome on 28 April 1918.

    On 21 November 1927, the Franciscans moved from Grodno to Teresin and on 8 December, the friary was consecrated and was given the name of Niepokalanow, the City of the Immaculate.

    By 13 September 1939, Niepokalanow had been occupied by the invading Germans and most of its inhabitants had been deported to Germany. Among them was Fr Maximilian. But that exile did not last long and on 8 December (the feast of the Immaculate Conception) the prisoners were set free. From the moment that he returned to Niepokalanow, Fr Maximilian was galvanised into a new kind of activity. He began to organize a shelter for 3,000 Polish refugees, among whom were 2,000 Jews. "We must do everything in our power to help these unfortunate people who have been driven from their homes and deprived of even the most basic necessities. Our mission is among them in the days that lie ahead." The friars shared everything they had with the refugees. They housed, fed and clothed them, and brought all their machinery into use in their service.

    Inevitably, the community came under suspicion and was watched closely. Early in 1941, in the only edition of The Knight of the Immaculate which he was allowed to publish, Fr Maximilian set pen to paper and thus provoked his own arrest. "No one in the world can change Truth," he wrote. "What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?"

    He would never know that kind of defeat; but a more obvious defeat was near. On 17 February 1941, he was arrested and sent to the infamous Pawiak prison in Warsaw. Here he was singled out for special ill-treatment. A witness tells us that in March of that year an SS guard, seeing this man in his habit girdled with a rosary, asked if he believed in Christ. When the priest calmly replied, "I do", the guard struck him. The SS man repeated his question several times and receiving always the same answer went on beating him mercilessly. Shortly afterwards the Franciscan habit was taken away and a prisoner's garment was substituted. On 28 May, Fr Maximilian was with over 300 others who were deported from Pawiak to Auschwitz. There he received his striped convict's garments and was branded with the number 16670. He was put to work immediately carrying blocks of stone for the construction of a crematorium wall. On the last day of May he was assigned with other priests to the Babice section which was under the direction of "Bloody" Krott, an ex-criminal. "These men are layabouts and parisites", said the Commandant to Krott, "get them working." Krott forced the priests to cut and carry huge tree trunks. The work went on all day without a stop and had to be done running --- with the aid of vicious blows from the guards. Depsite his one lung, Father Maximilain accepted the work and the blows with surprising calm. Krott conceived a relentless hatred against the Franciscan and gave him heavier tasks than the others. Sometimes his colleagues would try to come to his aid but he would not expose them to danger. Always he replied, "Mary gives me strength. All will be well." At this time he wrote to his mother, "Do not worry about me or my health, for the good Lord is everywhere and holds every one of us in his great love."

    One day, Krott found some of the heaviest planks he could lay hold of and personally loaded them on the Franciscan's back, ordering him to run. When he collapsed, Krott kicked him in the stomach and face and had his men give him fifty lashes. When the priest lost consciousness Krott threw him in the mud and left him for dead. But his companions managed to smuggle him to the Revier, the camp hospital. Although he was suffering greatly, he secretly heard confessions in the hospital and spoke to the other inmates of the love of God. In Aushcwitz, where hunger and hatred reigned and faith evaporated, this man opened his heart to others and spoke of God's infinite love. He seemed never to think of himself. When food was brought in and everyone struggled to get his place in the queue so as to be sure of a share, Fr Maximilian stood aside, so that frequently there was none left for him. At other times he shared his meagre ration of soup or bread with others. He was once asked whether such self-abnegation made sense in a place where every man was engaged in a struggle or survival, and he answered: "Every man has an aim in life. For most men it is to return home to their wives and families, or to their mothers. For my part, I give my life for the good of all men."

    Men gathered in secret to hear his words of love and encouragement, but it was his example which counted for most. Fr Zygmunt Rusczak remembers: "Each time I saw Fr Kolbe in the courtyard I felt within myself an extraordinary effusion of his goodness. Although he wore the same ragged clothes as the rest of us, with the same tin can hanging from his belt, one forgot his wretched exterior and was conscious only of the charm of his inspired countenance and of his radiant holiness."

    There remained only the last act in the drama. The events are recorded in the sworn testimonials of former inmates of the camp, collected as part of the beatification proceedings. They are as follows:

    Tadeusz Joachimowski, clerk of Block 14A: "In the summer of 1941, most probably on the last day of Juyl, the camp siren announced that there had been an escape. At the evening roll-call of the same day we, ie Block 14A, were formed up in the street between the buildings of Blocks 14 and 17. After some delay we were joined by a group of the Landwirtschafts-Kommando. During the count it was found that three prisoners from this Kommando had escaped: one from our Block and the two others from other Blocks. Lagerfuhrer Fritzsch announced that on account of the escape of the three prisoners, ten prisoners would be picked in reprisal from the blocks in which the fugitives had lived and would be assigned to the Bunker (the underground starvation cell)"

    Jan Jakub Zegidewicz takes up the story from there: "After the group of doomed men had already been selected, a prisoner stepped out from the ranks of one of the Blocks. I recognized Fr Kolbe. Owing to my poor knowledge of German I did not understand what they talked about, nor do I remember whether Fr Kolbe spoke directly to Fritzsch. When making his request, Fr Kolbe stood at attention and pointed at a former non-commissioned officer known to me from the camp. It could be inferred from the expression on Fritzsch's face that he was surprised at Fr Kolbe's action. As the sign was given, Fr Kolbe joined the ranks of the doomed and the non-commissioned officer left the ranks of the doomed Firzsch had consented to the exchange. A little later, the doomed men were marched off in the direction of Block 13, the death Block."

    The non-commissioned officer was Franciszek Gajowniczek. When the sentence of doom had been pronounced, Gajowniczek had cried out in despair, "Oh, my poor wife, my poor children. I shall never see them again." It was then that the unexpected had happened, and that from among the ranks of those temporarily reprieved, prisoner 16670 had stepped forward and offered himself in the other man's place. Then the ten condemned men were led off to the dreaded Bunker, to the airless underground cells were men died slowly without food or water.

    Bruno Borgowiec was an eyewitness of those last terrible days, for he was an assistant to the janitor and an interpreter in the underground Bunkers. He tells us what happened: "In the cell of the poor wretches there were daily loud prayers, the rosary and singing, in which prisnoers from neighbouring cells also joined. When no SS men were in the Block, I went to the Bunker to talk to the men and comfort them. Fervent prayers and songs to the Holy Mother resounded in all the corridors of the Bunker. I had the impression I was in a church. Fr Kolbe was leading and the prisoners responded in unison. They were often so deep in prayer that they did not even hear that inspecting SS men had descended to the Bunker; and the voices fell silent only at the loud yelling of their visitors. When the cells were opened the poor wretches cried loudly and begged for a piece of bread and for water, wh...
  10. Standard memberHalitose
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    09 Dec '05 13:53
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Thank you for that one.

    I'm reminded of Maximilian Kolbe. His story is famous, but is worth a retelling:

    His name wasn't always Maximilian. He was born the second son of a poor weaver on 8 January 1894 at Zdunska Wola near Lodz in Poland, and was given the baptismal name of Raymond.

    In 1907, Raymond and his elder brother entered a junior ...[text shortened]... were opened the poor wretches cried loudly and begged for a piece of bread and for water, wh...
    I think the end is missing...
  11. London
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    09 Dec '05 13:56
    Originally posted by Halitose
    I think the end is missing...
    Silly word limits. 🙂

    Anyway, the story concludes:

    When the cells were opened the poor wretches cried loudly and begged for a piece of bread and for water, which they did not receive, however. If any of the stronger ones approached the door he was immediately kicked in the stomach by the SS men, so that falling backwards on the cement floor he was instantly killed; or he was shot to death ... Fr Kolbe bore up bravely, he did not beg and did not complain but raised the spirits of the others. ...Since they had grown very weak, prayers were now only whispered. At every inspection, when almost all the others were now lying on the floor, Fr Kolbe was seen kneeling or standing in the centre as he looked cheerfully in the face of the SS men. Two weeks passed in this way. Meanwhile one after another they died, until only Fr Kolbe was left. This the authorities felt was too long; the cell was needed for new victims. So one day they brought in the head of the sickquarters, a German, a common criminal named Bock, who gave Fr Kolbe an injection of carbolic acid in the vein of his left arm. Fr Kolbe, with a prayer on his lips, himself gave his arm to the executioner. Unable to watch this I left under the pretext of work to be done. Immediately after the SS men with the executioner had left I returned to the cell, where I found Fr Kolbe leaning in a sitting position against the back wall with his eyes open and his head dropping sideways. His face was calm and radiant."
  12. Felicific Forest
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    09 Dec '05 16:341 edit
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    We hear a lot these days about the complicitus nature of the church during WW2. I hear more about the Catholic church, but protestant churches also turned a blind eye to the holocost. Our next addition paid dearly for his resistence to the Nazis.

    Dietrich Bonhoeffer's works are still considered to be standard for any theologcal library. Interesting ...[text shortened]... his final message to George Bell in England: "This is the end, for me the beginning of life."
    Kirk: " I hear more about the Catholic church, but protestant churches also turned a blind eye to the holocost."


    The Roman Catholic Church did not turn a blind eye to the holocaust. If you'll read the thread(s) about the subject you should come to that conclusion.
  13. London
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    09 Dec '05 16:48
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    [b]Kirk: " I hear more about the Catholic church, but protestant churches also turned a blind eye to the holocost."


    The Roman Catholic Church did not turn a blind eye to the holocaust. If you read the thread(s) about the subject you should have come to that conclusion reading them.[/b]
    He's not saying that the Catholic Church did turn a blind eye - just that a lot of talk today claims it did.
  14. Felicific Forest
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    09 Dec '05 16:571 edit
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    He's not saying that the Catholic Church did turn a blind eye - just that a lot of talk today claims it did.
    This is what Kirk wrote:

    Kirk: "We hear a lot these days about the complicitus nature of the church during WW2. I hear more about the Catholic church, but protestant churches also turned a blind eye to the holocost."

    I do not want to start a discussion about this, but if you read the second sentence using the word "also" I cannot come to another conclusion that the author, Kirk, has the opinion the Catholic Church "turned a blind eye" to the holocaust.

    I hope Kirk can bring clarity to this issue.
  15. Donationkirksey957
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    09 Dec '05 19:39
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    This is what Kirk wrote:

    Kirk: "We hear a lot these days about the complicitus nature of the church during WW2. I hear more about the Catholic church, but protestant churches also turned a blind eye to the holocost."

    I do not want to start a discussion about this, but if you read the second sentence using the word "also" I cannot come to another co ...[text shortened]... Church "turned a blind eye" to the holocaust.

    I hope Kirk can bring clarity to this issue.
    If you want to focus on me and the details of what I write and what it may say about me, that is fine Frankly the subject has been worn out in other posts. This thread is one of the most positive and thought provoking of any the threads in this forum since it was started. You seem to be the only one who has complained about it and it seems to be about me. So be it.
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