j.w's and the number 144,000

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
it seems to me that you are unaware that the majority of Jehovahs Witnesses hope to
live, not in heaven with Christ, but on a restored paradise earth, which has the capacity
to hold all the people that have ever lived.

ahhh!!! im sorry i misunderstood. so 144,000 go to heaven (1st class) and a the rest of humanity (worthy) get earth. how can earth hold so many people? is it a bigger earth?

Jesus came to seek and save the lost. That is more then 144000.

The 144000 are Jews out of chapter 7.

And the other 144000 are those who are persecuted in the end times. Ch. 14

Don't know if they are the same group.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
why do you talk like robot?

I do not know... Lol

Why do Jehovah’s Witnesses take the number 144,000 mentioned in the book of Revelation literally and not symbolically?


The apostle John wrote: “I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand.” (Revelation 7:4) In the Bible, the phrase “those who were sealed” refers to a group of individuals who are chosen from among mankind to rule with Christ in heaven over the coming Paradise earth. (2 Corinthians 1:21, 22; Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:6)
Their number, 144,000, is understood literally for several reasons. One is found in the immediate context of Revelation 7:4.

After the apostle John was told in vision about this group of 144,000 individuals, he was shown another group. John describes this second group as “a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues.” This great crowd refers to those who will survive the coming “great tribulation,” which will destroy the present wicked world.—Revelation 7:9, 14.

Note, however, the contrast that John draws between verses 4 and 9 of Revelation chapter 7. He states that the first group, “those who were sealed,” has a definite number. However, the second group, “a great crowd,” is without a definite number. With that in mind, it is logical to take the number 144,000 to be literal. If the number 144,000 were symbolic and referred to a group that is actually numberless, the force of the contrast between those two verses would be lost. Thus, the context strongly indicates that the number 144,000 must be taken literally.

Various Bible scholars, past and present, reached the same conclusion—that is, the number is literal. For instance, in commenting on Revelation 7:4, 9, British lexicographer Dr. Ethelbert W. Bullinger observed some 100 years ago: “It is the simple statement of fact: a definite number in contrast with the indefinite number in this very chapter.” (The Apocalypse or “The Day of the Lord,” page 282)

More recently, Robert L. Thomas, Jr., professor of New Testament at The Master’s Seminary in the United States, wrote: “The case for symbolism is exegetically weak.” He added: “It is a definite number [at 7:4] in contrast with the indefinite number of 7:9. If it is taken symbolically, no number in the book can be taken literally.”—Revelation: An Exegetical Commentary, Volume 1, page 474.
Some argue that since Revelation contains highly symbolic language, all numbers found in this book, including the number 144,000, must be symbolic. (Revelation 1:1, 4; 2:10) That conclusion, though, is clearly not correct.

Granted, Revelation contains numerous symbolic numbers, but it also includes literal numbers. For instance, John speaks of “the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” (Revelation 21:14) Clearly, the number 12 mentioned in this verse is literal, not symbolic. Further, the apostle John writes about “the thousand years” of Christ’s reign. That number is also to be taken literally, as a careful consideration of the Bible shows. (Revelation 20:3, 5-7) Hence, whether a number in Revelation is to be taken literally or symbolically depends on its background and setting.

The conclusion that the number 144,000 is literal and refers to a limited number of individuals, a relatively small group when compared with the “great crowd,” also harmonizes with other Bible passages. For instance, later in the vision that the apostle John receives, the 144,000 are described as those who “were bought from among mankind as firstfruits.” (Revelation 14:1, 4)

The expression “firstfruits” refers to a small representative selection. Also, while Jesus was on earth, he spoke about those who will rule with him in his heavenly Kingdom and called them a “little flock.” (Luke 12:32; 22:29) Indeed, those from among mankind who will rule in heaven are few in comparison with those of mankind who will inhabit the coming Paradise earth.

Hence, the context of Revelation 7:4 and related statements found elsewhere in the Bible bear out that the number 144,000 is to be taken literally. It refers to those who will rule in heaven with Christ over a paradise earth, which will be filled with a large and undetermined number of happy people who worship Jehovah God.—Psalm 37:29.

Watchtower 04/9/1 page 30.

Originally posted by RBHILL
Jesus came to seek and save the lost. That is more then 144000.

The 144000 are Jews out of chapter 7.

And the other 144000 are those who are persecuted in the end times. Ch. 14

Don't know if they are the same group.

So there are two groups of 144,000? Where does it state that in the Bible?

Originally posted by RBHILL
Jesus came to seek and save the lost. That is more then 144000.

The 144000 are Jews out of chapter 7.

And the other 144000 are those who are persecuted in the end times. Ch. 14

Don't know if they are the same group.

Here that (G75)? You gotta be Jewish to be one of the 144 000! Lol

Originally posted by stellspalfie
ahhh!!! im sorry i misunderstood. so 144,000 go to heaven (1st class) and a the rest of humanity (worthy) get earth. how can earth hold so many people? is it a bigger earth?

"Back in 1970 the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization estimated that the earth could produce food enough for more than forty times its present population! It is only due to the shortcomings of man-rule that people are now starving. The earth is able to support a much larger human family than it does today, and that would include all the resurrected dead. Further, God’s original command to man was to “fill the earth and subdue it,” not to overflow on it to the point of discomfort. Genesis 1:28."

Paradise Book. Chaper 17 page 159.

One needs to consider the amount of land on this earth. If "all" the land could be used for the growing of food and with humanity spreading out to cultivate all the land, there would be more then enough for all.
The Bible also promisses that all the earth would be able to produce food, unlike today.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Here that (G75)? You gotta be Jewish to be one of the 144 000! Lol

No one doesn't.

Originally posted by galveston75
No one doesn't.

In ch. 7
It give the jewish tribes the poeple come from 12000 in each of the 12.

Originally posted by galveston75
"Back in 1970 the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization estimated that the earth could produce food enough for more than forty times its present population! It is only due to the shortcomings of man-rule that people are now starving. The earth is able to support a much larger human family than it does today, and that would include all the resu .
The Bible also promisses that all the earth would be able to produce food, unlike today.

40 x the earths poplulation in 1970 would be around 120billion. robbie said everybody that had ever lived which is around 110 billion (so far). sounds like a bit of a squeeze. the end time will have to happen soon to keep within the population limit.

Originally posted by RBHILL
Jesus came to seek and save the lost. That is more then 144000.

The 144000 are Jews out of chapter 7.

And the other 144000 are those who are persecuted in the end times. Ch. 14

Don't know if they are the same group.

I don't believe they are the same group.

The sealing of the group in ch. 7 seems more in relation to the God of Israel in the Old Testament sense - faithfulness to His promises to Abraham.

The sealing of the group in ch. 14 are clearly more related to the Lamb and His Father - a New Testament leaning.

Chapter 14 is very much about the growth of God's "crop" of believers on the earth. There is a Firstfruits and latter there is a Harvest. This chapter is about the timing of maturity reached by Christians on the earth in the end times.

The ripeness, the maturity is what is being indicated by the terms Firstfruits and Harvest.

The 144,000 in chapter 7 are clearly preserved JEWS from the twelve tribes. There is no indication that the group in chapter 14 has any special Jewish national identify.

Only the number 144,000 is used again - having significance of great perfection and a remnant, a limited minority of some sort. Though 144,000 is a large group, it is still numbered and must be a remnant, a subgroup minority.

12 is the number composed of 4 for the creature and 3 for the Triune God mingled (not added as in 7) together. Twelve is a mingling of God (3) and Man (4) to produce 3 times 4.

Both groups are related to the Triune God. But the group sealed by God in ch.7 of 144,000 are related more to the Triune God in His old covenant promises to Israel. That was the same God. But it doesn't mention the Lamb in ch. 7 which is the incarnation of the Triune God.

In ch. 14 the Lamb and His Father are mentioned. This is more related to the incarnation of God as Christ the Redeemer. And these Firstfruits are the early ripe ones who are mature in the divine life at the time of Christ's second coming. They are raptured before the great tribulation. They are probably not the ONLY ones raptured before the great tribulation. But they are clearly for the satisfaction of the Father and the Lamb as the firstfruits in the OT were brought first into the temple before the general harvest.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
40 x the earths poplulation in 1970 would be around 120billion. robbie said everybody that had ever lived which is around 110 billion (so far). sounds like a bit of a squeeze. the end time will have to happen soon to keep within the population limit.

This would clearly not be a problem for a God who can arrange for two (or maybe 14) of every species (or maybe 'kind'😉 of animal on Earth to survive on a small ship for over a month.

Don't forget, he is a magician!

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by galveston75
So there are two groups of 144,000? Where does it state that in the Bible?

So there are two groups of 144,000? Where does it state that in the Bible?

No verse in the Bible do I know that specifically says that the 144,000 sealed in chapter 7 is another group from the 144,000 in chapter 14.

This is interpretation which I think I can back up as the best.

Now, there is also no passage in chapter 7 or chapter 14 about RULING with Christ. This is pure added on speculation on your part.

At least I can say with the same validity that you interpret that governmental reigning is assigned either of these two groups of 144,000 with NO EXPLICIT verse in the chapters stating that, I can equally interpret that we have TWO distinct groups mentioned in the two chapters.

Therefore, Galveston, please do not assert that I am saying something not precisely told us in either chapter 7 or 14 but YOU ARE. That is false. You are supplying an interpretation about these 144,000 special RULERS in a special government which the two chapters are completely SILENT about.

I do not say that you are necessarily wrong. I do say that anything in the way of Bible exposition that you yourself are not doing.

You can demonstrate me incorrect by supplying any passage from Revelation 7 or 14 telling us that these 144,000 (whether one group or two) are specially assigned to be some government.

You go outside chapters 7 and 14 to assume this exegesis is correct.
My reasons from believing they are TWO groups is by carefully comparing what is said about each group within the chapters in which they are discussed.

But, no passage, that I am aware of, garuantees that these are TWO groups. My opinion is that that is the best interpretation.

Originally posted by jaywill
In ch. 14 the Lamb and His Father are mentioned. This is more related to the incarnation of God as Christ the Redeemer. And these Firstfruits are the early ripe ones who are mature in the divine life at the time of Christ's second coming. They are raptured before the great tribulation. They are probably not the ONLY ones raptured before the great tribulatio ...[text shortened]... amb as the firstfruits in the OT were brought first into the temple before the general harvest.

I read the first 144,000 as you do. Clearly, God's chosen Jews, from the 12 tribes.

However, I read the second group (in 7:9, the "great multitude, which no man could number" ) as being those who died in Christ's name during the Great Tribulation, i.e. the martyrs for Christ. I do not see how these could be those who "are raptured before the great tribulation". They are the ones who are without the Mark of the Beast and died for Christ during the Tribulation. If they are "raptured out" before the Tribulation how could they die in the name of Christ, how could they be martyrs for him? This is the primary reason I do not believe in a "rapture event", especially before the Great Tribulation.

The ones in Chapter 14 I read as a further description of the original 144,000 mentioned at the start of Chapter 7.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I read the first 144,000 as you do. Clearly, God's chosen Jews, from the 12 tribes.

However, I read the second group (in 7:9, the "great multitude, which no man could number"😉 as being those who died in Christ's name during the Great Tribulation, i.e. the martyrs for Christ. I do not see how these could be those who "are raptured before the great tribu ...[text shortened]... as a further description of the original 144,000 mentioned at the start of Chapter 7.

However, I read the second group (in 7:9, the "great multitude, which no man could number" as being those who died in Christ's name during the Great Tribulation, i.e. the martyrs for Christ. I do not see how these could be those who "are raptured before the great tribulation". They are the ones who are without the Mark of the Beast and died for Christ during the Tribulation. If they are "raptured out" before the Tribulation how could they die in the name of Christ, how could they be martyrs for him? This is the primary reason I do not believe in a "rapture event", especially before the Great Tribulation.

Concerning the great unnumbered multitude in Revelation 7:9-17 I did not make any comment about that. I think someone else did. If you would like me to write about that great multitude which no man can number I can.

I could fellowship with you latter about that (Rev. 7:9-17) [/b]

The ones in Chapter 14 I read as a further description of the original 144,000 mentioned at the start of Chapter 7.

Many respected expositors share that view. After some time, actually years, of considering it, I decided that something else is being related there than the 144,000 in chapter 7. And I have taken that position.

I could be wrong. But if you want to fellowship why I see them as another group, we can do that also latter.

Some of these matters I think some of us talked about before within the last year or two.