j.w's and the number 144,000

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
sadly for this point of view, the tribes mentioned in the book of revelation do not
correlate to the twelve tribes of natural Israel, looks like your busted again! Paul
demonstrates the correct understanding when he states that a Jew is one on the inside,
who circumcision is of the heart, that is why he speaks of spiritual Israel.

All the twelve sons of Jacob (Israel) are mentioned in describing the 144,000 except for Dan. When Jacob became sick before he died he blessed Joseph's two sons Manasseh and Ephraim. There is no record of Jacob blessing any of his other grandsons. It is Manasseh, the firstborn of Joseph, that replaces Dan in Revelation Chapter 7. So Joseph is mentioned and his firstborn son is also mentioned.

Why should Dan be replaced by Joseph's firstborn son, Manasseh? I think the clue to this is that Dan is the only one that only had one son and the prophesy pronounced on Dan. The prophecy is in Genesis 49:17 and is as follows:

“Dan shall be a serpent in the way,
A horned snake in the path,
That bites the horse’s heels,
So that his rider falls backward."

I believe Dan's son went into idolatry and followed in the path of Satan, the serpent of old. Therefore, the tribe of Dan did not qualify for the 144,000 and so 12,000 from Joseph's firstborn son Manasseh replaced him.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
or maybe we can form the 13th tribe and set up our own paradise on caprica. leave all the religious nut jobs behind to wipe each other out and then eventually evolve into a race of super intelligent evil robots.


little bit of sci-fi humor there for any nerds reading the forum.

Isn't that what the religious right wing nut jobs are now?

Originally posted by sonhouse
Isn't that what the religious right wing nut jobs are now?

evil - check
robots - check
trying to wipe each other out - check
super intelligent - ahh well 3 out of 4 aint bad.

Originally posted by RJHinds
All the twelve sons of Jacob (Israel) are mentioned in describing the 144,000 except for Dan. When Jacob became sick before he died he blessed Joseph's two sons Manasseh and Ephraim. There is no record of Jacob blessing any of his other grandsons. It is Manasseh, the firstborn of Joseph, that replaces Dan in Revelation Chapter 7. So Joseph is mentioned and ...[text shortened]... ot qualify for the 144,000 and so 12,000 from Joseph's firstborn son Manasseh replaced him.uot

You are right. But Dan is reinstated during the millennial kingdom because of God's salvation. Dan is mentioned in relation to the millennial kingdom in Ezekiel (Ezekiel 48:1) - Dan has waited for salvation, as the prophecy states. And Dan receives God's salvation.

“Dan shall be a serpent in the way,
A horned snake in the path,
That bites the horse’s heels,
So that his rider falls backward."

That is Genesis 49:17.

Add the next verse - "I have waited for Your salvation, O Jehovah" (Genesis 49:18)

Originally posted by RJHinds
I also reason that the 144,000 mentioned in Chapter 14 is the same 144,000 mentioned in Chapter 7, because it appears to me that the total of all of the saved are represented in Chapter 7 with the two groups, one group that can be numbered and another group that can not be numbered by John. So that would rule out another group with the exact same number in my way of thinking.

Joseph, receives the double portion blessing. The firstborn son should receive the double portion. But Joseph replaced Reuben the firstborn.

As we read Genesis we see that the purity of Joseph verses the fornication of Reuben caused Joseph to replace the firstborn Reuben in the blessings.

The two sons of Joseph represent the double portion going to Joseph rather than to the demoted firstborn Reuben.

This should serve as a strong hint that a saved person may lose some reward because of involvement in greedy lust with no self control.

In a coming post I think I will fellowship with you more about the 144,000s in Rev. 7 and 14.

Originally posted by sonhouse
It is really sad when billions of people conduct their lives thinking they will be 'saved' by some god of man's invention. The fact there are so many opposing religions on Earth is proof no god would ever set up such a cruel system. Only men can come up with such cruelty.

This religious thing is going to get the human race close to extinction, maybe whe ...[text shortened]... ll religious people are dead, the living can go on to recreate a REAL paradise here on Earth.

You are correct that God would not and has not been behind the fomations of all the religions on the planet. That has been mans design and that is because of Satans influance.
Satan hates God as the Bible clearly shows. Satan also has no love for humans and it is his intent to destroy what he can.
He cannot do that to God and his son so his only recourse is to attack humans. He knows he has only a short time left and is doing all he can to draw humans away from God and his greatest trick is by using religion.
He knows the vast majority of humans would never worship him " satan" directly so he has been behind the many formations of religion and has sprinkled just enough truth in most to make them acceptable to most humans.
But Jehovah sees that and knows satans tricks and has allowed time to have satan's wickedness exposed and then in turn have his truths seen and what he wants from us to "get out of her", "false religion" and learn the truths of Jehovah.

Originally posted by galveston75
You are correct that God would not and has not been behind the fomations of all the religions on the planet. That has been mans design and that is because of Satans influance.
Satan hates God as the Bible clearly shows. Satan also has no love for humans and it is his intent to destroy what he can.
He cannot do that to God and his son so his only rec ...[text shortened]... t he wants from us to "get out of her", "false religion" and learn the truths of Jehovah.

Since God cannot possibly be behind the 100s of false prophesies of the Watchtower organization, it must be [according to you] Satan, so take your own advice .. GET OUT OF HER ..

Originally posted by galveston75
You are correct that God would not and has not been behind the fomations of all the religions on the planet. That has been mans design and that is because of Satans influance.
Satan hates God as the Bible clearly shows. Satan also has no love for humans and it is his intent to destroy what he can.
He cannot do that to God and his son so his only rec ...[text shortened]... t he wants from us to "get out of her", "false religion" and learn the truths of Jehovah.

I have discovered that sonhouse does not believe in God or Satan. So speaking to him about them seems to do no more than go in one ear and out the other just as the saying goes.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I have discovered that sonhouse does not believe in God or Satan. So speaking to him about them seems to do no more than go in one ear and out the other just as the saying goes.

I know but the info is for all... Thanks.

Originally posted by galveston75
You are correct that God would not and has not been behind the fomations of all the religions on the planet. That has been mans design and that is because of Satans influance.

Out of your own mouth.

Originally posted by jaywill
[bThere is no mention specifically of the "Triune God" in any Hebrew or Greek text. Of course many have known that for centries.
However, the fact of a Three - One God and Trinity is revealed in the Bible. For the Father is described as God and the Son is described as God and the Holy Spirit is described as God.
So the revelation of the truth of the Father - ...[text shortened]... se a useful phrase like Triune God or Trinity in talking about the Father - Son - Holy Spirit.[/b]

There is no mention specifically of the "Triune God" in any Hebrew or Greek text. Of course many have known that for centries.

Not in the Bible once, and yet you choose you still use the term and with a captital T, interesting.

However, the fact of a Three - One God and Trinity is revealed in the Bible. For the Father is described as God and the Son is described as God and the Holy Spirit is described as God.

There is ONE God irrespective of our interpretation. Three gods is paganism. We each must make our own decisions I suppose.

"Hear oh Israel the LORD your God is ONE."

Originally posted by divegeester
[b]There is no mention specifically of the "Triune God" in any Hebrew or Greek text. Of course many have known that for centries.

Not in the Bible once, and yet you choose you still use the term and with a captital T, interesting.

However, the fact of a Three - One God and Trinity is revealed in the Bible. For the Father is described as God ...[text shortened]... We each must make our own decisions I suppose.

"Hear oh Israel the LORD your God is ONE."

The Triune God is spelled with a capital letter to indicate we are referring to the only True God. There are not three gods, but three persons that make up the ONE TRIUNE GOD. In Genesis, God refers to Himself as US, not I. This is because one of the three persons in the Godhead is speaking to the other two persons in the Godhead, but yet there is only one Godhead. Each person in the Godhead is God, yet there are not three, but only one God. This is beyond physical understanding and must be discerned spiritually.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The Triune God is spelled with a capital letter to indicate we are referring to the only True God. There are not three gods, but three persons that make up the ONE TRIUNE GOD. In Genesis, God refers to Himself as US, not I. This is because one of the three persons in the Godhead is speaking to the other two persons in the Godhead, but yet there is only o ...[text shortened]... ree, but only one God. This is beyond physical understanding and must be discerned spiritually.

If I am not mistaken, some lines containing stuff like this were spoken by Spike Milligan after he picked up the sandal, but they were cut from the final edit of The Life Of Brian.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The Triune God is spelled with a capital letter to indicate we are referring to the only True God. There are not three gods, but three persons that make up the ONE TRIUNE GOD. In Genesis, God refers to Himself as US, not I. This is because one of the three persons in the Godhead is speaking to the other two persons in the Godhead, but yet there is only o ...[text shortened]... ree, but only one God. This is beyond physical understanding and must be discerned spiritually.

What you just said makes no sense whatsoever, is completely self contradictory and completely unscriptural in terms of how God describes himself in the Bible. You are believing a pagan spin on Christianity and applying it to the one living God who says himself on multiple occaisions "I AM ONE" and "I will not give my glory to another".

Originally posted by jaywill
Then there is no possibility that you also can argue for the Bible being wrong.

According to your own logic you remove your right to prove this or that biblical teaching is in error.

it is known that logic is not one of your strong points and this post vindicates that position.