j.w's and the number 144,000

Originally posted by whodey
Well there is Robbie, Galveston.....after that I got noth'in. I don't know who the rest of the 143,998 are.

I doubt those two do enough good works to get into the 144,000

Originally posted by galveston75
My desire is to be here on earth, hopefully forever if I am found worthy.

Put your trust in Christ instead of your own self worth.

Originally posted by jaywill
I don't believe they are the same group.

The sealing of the group in ch. 7 seems more in relation to the God of Israel in the Old Testament sense - faithfulness to His promises to Abraham.

The sealing of the group in ch. 14 are clearly more related to the Lamb and His Father - a New Testament leaning.

Chapter 14 is very much about the [b]growt s the firstfruits in the OT were brought first into the temple before the general harvest.[/b]

There is no such thing as a "Triune God" in the Bible; certainly not one with a capital T.

Originally posted by divegeester
There is no such thing as a "Triune God" in the Bible; certainly not one with a capital T.

There is no such thing as a "Triune God" in the Bible; certainly not one with a capital T.

There is no mention specifically of the "Triune God" in any Hebrew or Greek text. Of course many have known that for centries.

However, the fact of a Three - One God and Trinity is revealed in the Bible. For the Father is described as God and the Son is described as God and the Holy Spirit is described as God.

So the revelation of the truth of the Father - Son - Holy Spirit God [singular] IS in the Bible. So we feel quite justified to use a useful phrase like Triune God or Trinity in talking about the Father - Son - Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by jaywill

There is no such thing as a "Triune God" in the Bible; certainly not one with a capital T.

There is no mention specifically of the "Triune God" in any Hebrew or Greek text. Of course many have known that for centries.

However, the fact of a Three - One God and Trinity is revealed in the Bible. For the Father is described as God a ...[text shortened]... a useful phrase like Triune God or Trinity in talking about the Father - Son - Holy Spirit.

equally justified are the modalists, unitarianists, binitarianists, etc. etc. boiling down to the reality that none of you are justified in forming any beliefs based on the bible.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I read the first 144,000 as you do. Clearly, God's chosen Jews, from the 12 tribes.

However, I read the second group (in 7:9, the "great multitude, which no man could number" ) as being those who died in Christ's name during the Great Tribulation, i.e. the martyrs for Christ. I do not see how these could be those who "are raptured before the great trib as a further description of the original 144,000 mentioned at the start of Chapter 7.

sadly for this point of view, the tribes mentioned in the book of revelation do not
correlate to the twelve tribes of natural Israel, looks like your busted again! Paul
demonstrates the correct understanding when he states that a Jew is one on the inside,
who circumcision is of the heart, that is why he speaks of spiritual Israel.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I read the first 144,000 as you do. Clearly, God's chosen Jews, from the 12 tribes.

However, I read the second group (in 7:9, the "great multitude, which no man could number" ) as being those who died in Christ's name during the Great Tribulation, i.e. the martyrs for Christ. I do not see how these could be those who "are raptured before the great trib as a further description of the original 144,000 mentioned at the start of Chapter 7.

Just to be clear the word "rapture" is not in the Bible at all and nothing of that sort is mentioned.
But if it did, who would be the ones to go and what would they be going to do?

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
equally justified are the modalists, unitarianists, binitarianists, etc. etc. boiling down to the reality that none of you are justified in forming any beliefs based on the bible.

The Trinitarian view is the only view that fits all the statements in the Holy Bible. For example, the following link shows the problems with modalism:

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-modalism.htm

Trinitarism vs. Unitarianism
YouTube&feature=relmfu

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
equally justified are the modalists, unitarianists, binitarianists, etc. etc. boiling down to the reality that none of you are justified in forming any beliefs based on the bible.

Then there is no possibility that you also can argue for the Bible being wrong.

According to your own logic you remove your right to prove this or that biblical teaching is in error.

Originally posted by jaywill
[quote] However, I read the second group (in 7:9, the "great multitude, which no man could number" as being those who died in Christ's name during the Great Tribulation, i.e. the martyrs for Christ. I do not see how these could be those who "are raptured before the great tribulation". They are the ones who are without the Mark of the Beast and died for Chris ...[text shortened]... me of these matters I think some of us talked about before within the last year or two.

I also reason that the 144,000 mentioned in Chapter 14 is the same 144,000 mentioned in Chapter 7, because it appears to me that the total of all of the saved are represented in Chapter 7 with the two groups, one group that can be numbered and another group that can not be numbered by John. So that would rule out another group with the exact same number in my way of thinking.

Originally posted by divegeester
I doubt those two do enough good works to get into the 144,000

How about 144,001? Wouldn't that bite? I mean, being just one away. 😵

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
sadly for this point of view, the tribes mentioned in the book of revelation do not
correlate to the twelve tribes of natural Israel, looks like your busted again! Paul
demonstrates the correct understanding when he states that a Jew is one on the inside,
who circumcision is of the heart, that is why he speaks of spiritual Israel.

Why use the 12 tribes then Robbie?

Originally posted by whodey
Why use the 12 tribes then Robbie?

It is really sad when billions of people conduct their lives thinking they will be 'saved' by some god of man's invention. The fact there are so many opposing religions on Earth is proof no god would ever set up such a cruel system. Only men can come up with such cruelty.

This religious thing is going to get the human race close to extinction, maybe when all religious people are dead, the living can go on to recreate a REAL paradise here on Earth.

Originally posted by sonhouse
It is really sad when billions of people conduct their lives thinking they will be 'saved' by some god of man's invention. The fact there are so many opposing religions on Earth is proof no god would ever set up such a cruel system. Only men can come up with such cruelty.

This religious thing is going to get the human race close to extinction, maybe whe ...[text shortened]... ll religious people are dead, the living can go on to recreate a REAL paradise here on Earth.

or maybe we can form the 13th tribe and set up our own paradise on caprica. leave all the religious nut jobs behind to wipe each other out and then eventually evolve into a race of super intelligent evil robots.


little bit of sci-fi humor there for any nerds reading the forum.