1. Joined
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    28 Aug '17 01:481 edit
    Mark 3

    Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. 14 He appointed twelve[a] that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach 15 and to have authority to drive out demons. 16 These are the twelve he appointed: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter), 17 James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means “sons of thunder&rdquo😉, 18 Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot 19 and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

    Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas would betray him. Jesus put Judas there so Judas would betray him. I think most of us would call this entrapment.
  2. Joined
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    28 Aug '17 01:53
    Matthew 26

    Jesus replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”


    Judas was chosen to betray Jesus yet Jesus still says it would be better if Judas was not born.
  3. Standard memberchaney3
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    28 Aug '17 01:59
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Mark 3

    [b]Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. 14 He appointed twelve[a] that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach 15 and to have authority to drive out demons. 16 These are the twelve he appointed: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter), 17 James son of Zebedee and his brothe ...[text shortened]... Jesus put Judas there so Judas would betray him. I think most of us would call this entrapment.
    Free will is gone.

    Pre-destiny is the rule.
  4. Joined
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    28 Aug '17 07:45
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Mark 3

    [b]Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. 14 He appointed twelve[a] that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach 15 and to have authority to drive out demons. 16 These are the twelve he appointed: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter), 17 James son of Zebedee and his brothe ...[text shortened]... Jesus put Judas there so Judas would betray him. I think most of us would call this entrapment.
    Perhaps judas raped Mary?
  5. Joined
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    28 Aug '17 09:49
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Mark 3

    [b]Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. 14 He appointed twelve[a] that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach 15 and to have authority to drive out demons. 16 These are the twelve he appointed: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter), 17 James son of Zebedee and his brothe ...[text shortened]... Jesus put Judas there so Judas would betray him. I think most of us would call this entrapment.
    Judas should be treated as that hero he actually is! He sacrificed everything to fulfill the profecy!
    Without him they wouldn't have found Jesus. Jesus would be non-crucified and there wouldn't be any christianity to come. We would all be jews!
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    28 Aug '17 11:18
    Originally posted by @fabianfnas
    Judas should be treated as that hero he actually is! He sacrificed everything to fulfill the profecy!
    Without him they wouldn't have found Jesus. Jesus would be non-crucified and there wouldn't be any christianity to come. We would all be jews!
    Sounds a lot like how Mormons view Satan.
  7. Standard memberKellyJay
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    28 Aug '17 12:09
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Mark 3

    [b]Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. 14 He appointed twelve[a] that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach 15 and to have authority to drive out demons. 16 These are the twelve he appointed: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter), 17 James son of Zebedee and his brothe ...[text shortened]... Jesus put Judas there so Judas would betray him. I think most of us would call this entrapment.
    I am sure you do! There were 12 that started with Him. 11 didn't betray Him that went through the same thing, saw the same things. Yet they were not stealing from the money bag as he did.

    In this world you do what you will, be it good or bad. If you think it is entrapment then any dishonest man who finds a wallet, and keeps what he wants is entrapped by his dishonesty while an honest one does what he thinks he should.

    This life shows us our faults and reveals what type of people we want to be, because we do have choices.
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    28 Aug '17 12:12
    Originally posted by @kellyjay
    I am sure you do! There were 12 that started with Him. 11 didn't betray Him that went through the same thing, saw the same things. Yet they were not stealing from the money bag as he did.

    In this world you do what you will, be it good or bad. If you think it is entrapment then any dishonest man who finds a wallet, and keeps what he wants is entrapped by ...[text shortened]... e shows us our faults and reveals what type of people we want to be, because we do have choices.
    Did Jesus know Judas' heart when he chose Judas?

    Did Jesus know Judas would betray him?
  9. Standard memberKellyJay
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    28 Aug '17 12:28
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Did Jesus know Judas' heart when he chose Judas?

    Did Jesus know Judas would betray him?
    He knows all of our hearts. He also warns us about how we conduct ourselves. Which would be meaningless if we had no choice in anything. Why say don't sin, repent, and come to me if no one could!

    Sin entraps us Jesus sets us free.
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    28 Aug '17 12:312 edits
    Originally posted by @kellyjay
    He knows all of our hearts. He also warns us about how we conduct ourselves. Which would be meaningless if we had no choice in anything. Why say don't sin, repent, and come to me if no one could!

    Sin entraps us Jesus sets us free.
    So Jesus chose Judas knowing that Judas would betray him. Jesus chose Judas to be the betrayer and yet Judas gets punished anyhow.
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    28 Aug '17 12:511 edit
    Originally posted by @eladar
    So Jesus chose Judas knowing that Judas would betray him. Jesus chose Judas to be the betrayer and yet Judas gets punished anyhow.
    Free will in general is the issue.

    Do we have free will since God already knows what our free will is going to be?

    From a human standpoint, it is hard understanding how this could be so since God made us who we are and he knew in advance how we would turn out. However, the other conundrum to consider is, if God is all powerful then there must have been a way to create free will even though he knew what the outcome would be, otherwise he is not all powerful.

    In the case of Judas, he was probably lost regardless of being included in the plans of Jesus. Judas simply facilitated the mission to lay down the life of Jesus.
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    28 Aug '17 12:55
    Originally posted by @whodey
    Free will in general is the issue.

    Do we have free will since God already knows what our free will is going to be?

    From a human standpoint, it is hard understanding how this could be so since God made us who we are and he knew in advance how we would turn out. However, the other conundrum to consider is, if God is all powerful then there must have bee ...[text shortened]... uded in the plans of Jesus. Judas simply facilitated the mission to lay down the life of Jesus.
    Jesus choosing Judas goes beyond free will. There were others who would not have betrayed Jesus could have chosen.
  13. Standard memberKellyJay
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    28 Aug '17 13:32
    Originally posted by @eladar
    So Jesus chose Judas knowing that Judas would betray him. Jesus chose Judas to be the betrayer and yet Judas gets punished anyhow.
    Yes, because he did something he should not have.
  14. Standard memberKellyJay
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    28 Aug '17 13:41
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Jesus choosing Judas goes beyond free will. There were others who would not have betrayed Jesus could have chosen.
    Everyone chooses in this life, why do you think His followers should have been flawless knowing that everyone available to choose from was flawed?

    Just because God knows doesn't mean you're not making the choice, one doesn't void the other. Unless you think God is not able to create a race in God's image who can make independent choices apart from God and Satan?

    The only thing that binds us is our sin and hearts. Just as the only One to set us free is Jesus!
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    28 Aug '17 13:47
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Sounds a lot like how Mormons view Satan.
    So Satan did also fulfill the prophecy of Jesus crucifixion?
    Then Satan is a better asset to christianity than I previous thought...
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