Originally posted by jaywillummm can you show me any other place where the Almighty is termed, eternal father, thanks .
Do you read ancient Hebrew fluently? Where did you get your education in translation of the Hebrew language ?
I know the John Nelson Darby read and translated fluently ancient Hebrew. And the Darby translations reads "Father of Eternity".
I know that Kerry S. Robichaux fleuntly reads and translates ancient Hebrew. And the Receo ...[text shortened]... r Divine Fathers are there? Do not mention Abraham for he is not divine.[/b]
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In my Strong's Exhaustive Concordance in the Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary I find this information:
The word translated in the Authorized Version for everlasting in Isa. 9:6 as in "Everlasting Father" seems to be the same word in :
" ... the everlasting mountians " (Habakkuk 3:6 )
It is also used here:
"The high and lofty one who inhabits eternity " (Isaiah 57:15)
Entry # 5703 takes on these meanings:
duration, in the sense of advance or perpetuity, eternity, everlasting, evermore, old, perpetually, without end
How many Fathers in the Bible can be discribed as related to eternity, evermore, without end, everlasting, evermore ?
Note that they also would take on another name of Mighty God.
Is there more than one Divine Father who also is God ?
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Originally posted by jaywilllol, jaywill, so what the evidence suggests is nowhere, oh man, thanks for that, so not only is the title almighty used exclusively for god, but the title eternal father is used exclusively for Christ, it gets better by the minute!
In my Strong's Exhaustive Concordance in the Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary I find this information:
The word translated in the Authorized Version for [b]everlasting in Isa. 9:6 as in "Everlasting Father" seems to be the same word in :
" ... the everlastng mountians " (Habakkuk 3:6 )
It is also used here:
"The on another name of Mighty God.
Is there more than one Divine Father who also is God ?
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Originally posted by robbie carrobie==================================
lol, jaywill, so what the evidence suggests is nowhere, oh man, thanks for that, so not only is the title almighty used exclusively for god, but the title eternal father is used exclusively for Christ, it gets better by the minute!
lol, jaywill, so what the evidence suggests is nowhere, oh man, thanks for that, so not only is the title almighty used exclusively for god, but the title eternal father is used exclusively for Christ, it gets better by the minute!
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Laugh harder bobbie. ROFL would be even more impressive.
Eternal Father is apparently a good and valid translation. Everlasting Father is good too according to the Strong's Dictionary.
So we have a Son Who is called Everlasting Father or Eternal Father, depending on which English translation you use.
Now this matter of "futurity" I suppose was surmised by Strong's indication of "advance". That sounds like the long shot.
I mean can you find me an English translation of Habakkuk 3:6 that reads "mountains of futurity" ?
And another thing. The KJV reads Isaiah 63:16 says:
Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and ISrael acknowledge us not: thou, O Lord, art our father, our redeemer; thy name [is] from everlasting."
Hmmm. If His name is from everlasting than He surely must be the Everlasting Father. Makes sense to me.
And this divine father is definitely not Abraham and not Israel but even MORE reliable as a Father - one who is divine and whose Name is from everlasting.
Yep. That's the Father that the prophet must mean in Isaiah 9:6. Wonderful ! That is a SON who is nonetheless the Father who trancends any man like Abraham or Israel and whose name is from everlasting.
Originally posted by knightmeisterIt has nothing to do with being a "perfectionist" ......let's not make that mistake ! ... and it certainly hasn't got anything to do with competition ..... please.
Maybe Jesus was a perfectionist? I doubt this though. I think he was saying that we should strive for perfection and try and be like his Father.
Striving for perfection is entirely consistent with the idea that perfection may or may not be reached in this lifetime. Just as any sportsman will strive for perfection. A racing driver will strive to win ...[text shortened]... Jesus's teachings anyway even when you don't adhere to his basic core teaching.=== )
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Originally posted by jaywillhe-he jaywill, you have proved the trinity false for yourself, there is no instance of Almighty god ever termed eternal father, it is simply used prophetically of Christ, and now you must try to patch up this rather colourful quilt and try to find references that mention eternal , no matter how tenuous, lol, it is to laugh, heehaw heehaw! as porky pig would say - bid bid bid thats all folks!
[b]==================================
lol, jaywill, so what the evidence suggests is nowhere, oh man, thanks for that, so not only is the title almighty used exclusively for god, but the title eternal father is used exclusively for Christ, it gets better by the minute!
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Laugh harder bobbie. ROFL ather who trancends any man like Abraham or Israel and whose name is from everlasting.[/b]
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Moving on since whoever has an ear to hear will hear and understand what Isaiah 9:6 is saying about the child and the Son.
Here in the New Testament we have other indications of the complete divinity of Jesus the Son of God.
God in the OT is the Shepherd Psalm 23:1.
Christ in the NT is the Good Shepherd (John 10:11)
God in the OT is the First and the Last (Isa. 44:6)
Christ is the First and the Last in the NT (Rev. 1:17)
God is the divine Judge in the OT (Joel 3:12).
Christ is the divine Judge in the NT (Matt. 25:31)
God is the Bridegroom in the OT (Isa. 62:5).
Christ is the Bridegroom in the NT (Matt. 25:1)
God is the Light in the OT (Psa. 27:1).
Christ is the Light in the NT (John 8:12)
God is the Divine Savior in the OT (Isa. 43:11)
Christ is the Divine Savior in the NT (John 4:42)
God's glory is God's in OT (Isa. 42:8).
Christ has it in the NT (John 17:5)
God is the Giver of Life in the OT (1 Sam. 2:6)
Christ is the Giver of Life in the NT (John 5:21)
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Originally posted by jaywilllol, ''other'', what were the first ones, please no more jaywill, you're killing me! he-he, i noticed that there is no reference to john 1 verse 1, were you not impressed with my sahidic Coptic text of the very verse in question, which has for all time puts to rest the idea that it is with reference to Christ as almighty god? another nail in the coffin for this heresy!
Moving on since whoever [b] has an ear to hear will hear and understand what Isaiah 9:6 is saying about the child and the Son.
Here in the New Testament we have other indications of the complete divinity of Jesus the Son of God.
God in the OT is the Shepherd Psalm 23:1.
Christ in the NT is the Good Shepherd (John 10:11)
God in the OT is the Giver of Life in the OT (1 Sam. 2:6)
Christ is the Giver of Life in the NT (John 5:21)[/b]
Originally posted by jaywillSo Christ/God was schizophrenic?
Moving on since whoever [b] has an ear to hear will hear and understand what Isaiah 9:6 is saying about the child and the Son.
Here in the New Testament we have other indications of the complete divinity of Jesus the Son of God.
God in the OT is the Shepherd Psalm 23:1.
Christ in the NT is the Good Shepherd (John 10:11)
God in the OT ...[text shortened]... is the Giver of Life in the OT (1 Sam. 2:6)
Christ is the Giver of Life in the NT (John 5:21)[/b]
Two personalities in one being?
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieLet's ask Jesus directly. Ask Him what ? Let's ask Him if He is the Eternal Father.
lol, ''other'', what were the first ones, please no more jaywill, you're killing me! he-he, i noticed that there is no reference to john 1 verse 1, were you not impressed with my sahidic Coptic text of the very verse in question, which has for all time puts to rest the idea that it is with reference to Christ as almighty god? another nail in the coffin for this heresy!
I will assume that beside the Eternal Father there is not another God who is the Almighty.
Well, we will allow the disciple Phillip to ask Jesus for us in John chapter 14.
"Philip said to Him, Lord show us the Father and it is sufficient for us. (v.8)
Jesus said to him, Have I been so long a time with you, and you have not known Me, Phillip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how is it that you say, Show us the Father (v.9)
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me does His works. (v.10)
Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; but it not, believe because of the oworks themselves." (v.11)
Thank the Lord that the Evangelist John recorded this conversation. Phillip asks Jesus to show them the Father. Jesus replies:
"Have I been so long a time with you, and you have not known .... ME ... Phillip?"
We could use out imagination and just hear Jesus saying perhaps - "Phillip, don't you remember Isaiah's prophecy ? Don't you remember that Isaiah said that the Son given would be called the'. Eternal Father ? How can you say, 'Show us the Father?'
I have been so long a time with you and you have not known ME Phillip."
Jesus' first choice is that we would believe that the ME is the Father just as Isaiah the prophet predicted. But if we are weak in faith, like some people seem to be, He will accept that we believe in Him because of the works that He does. That is the works of God Himself.
I prefer BOTH.
Isaiah 9:6 is confirmed out of the mouth of Jesus Himself in John 14:8-11. This is a very good verse on the Triune God.
"Have I been so long a time with you, and you have not known Me, Phillip ?"
No. This is NOT Oneness Pentacostalism. This is a proper presentation of the Trinity.
Goodnight.
Originally posted by jaywillWhat about verse 12?
Let's ask Jesus directly. Ask Him what ? Let's ask Him if He is the Eternal Father.
I will assume that beside the Eternal Father there is not another God who is the Almighty.
Well, we will allow the disciple Phillip to ask Jesus for us in John chapter 14.
[b]"Philip said to Him, Lord show us the Father and it is sufficient for us. (v.8)
Jes ...[text shortened]... ss Pentacostalism. This is a proper presentation of the Trinity.
Goodnight.
Can you do the great works that Christ does?
Do you know anybody who can ?
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Originally posted by jaywillYou have a lot of chutzpa quoting St John 14, Jaywill. Seriously. That chapter is probably the least
Let's ask Jesus directly. Ask Him what ? Let's ask Him if He is the Eternal Father.
I will assume that beside the Eternal Father there is not another God who is the Almighty.
Well, we will allow the disciple Phillip to ask Jesus for us in John chapter 14.
"Philip said to Him, Lord show us the Father and it is sufficient for us. (v.8)
Jes ss Pentacostalism. This is a proper presentation of the Trinity.
Goodnight.
compelling for your case.
First, what does Jesus say? 'The Father is in me and I am in the Father.' This is not
equivalence; this is not equality. This does not mean that Jesus thought as Himself as Divine.
This is a recognition of the 'completeness' mentioned in the other thread, that Jesus thought of
Himself as being in full communion with the Father. He encouraged His believers to do and be the
same. You see this in verse 20: 'On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are
in me and I in you. By your understanding of verse 10, then believers are also God, because
Jesus is in them and they are in Jesus. This is further clarified by the preceding verse 17, in
which the Spirit will be in the believer, and the following verse 23, Whoever loves me will keep
my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling in him.
Again, this indwelling of the Divine is something that the author of this text believed Jesus achieved
and expected believers to achieve as well. It's not Divine equivalence.
But even more damning to your claim is verse 28: If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am
going to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.
But the clincher is in the very first verse of the chapter: Do not let your hearts be troubled. You
have faith in God; have faith also in me.
Let's look at that in the Greek:
Me tarassestho umon e kapdia; pisteuete eis ton theos kai eis eme pisteuete.
Let not be troubled your heart; you believe in God also in me believe.
This is the opposite of equivalence. This is juxtaposition. Believe in X; also believe in Y. The
use of the word 'kai' (also) necessarily contradicts the claim to equivalence. And, you'll notice
that the juxtaposition is not 'Father/Son,' but 'God/Jesus.'
Sorry, but John 14 is not the place to make your case, Jaywill.
Nemesio
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Originally posted by jaywillRabbit season.
Do you read ancient Hebrew fluently? Where did you get your education in translation of the Hebrew language ?
I know the John Nelson Darby read and translated fluently ancient Hebrew. And the Darby translations reads "Father of Eternity"
Repeating that other Christians with a priori assumptions about what the passage ought to mean
doesn't mean the Hebrew says it. It's really that simple.
And using Darby to bolster your claim is almost as amusing as using John 14 to bolster your other claim;
he translated the Hebrew through his own dispensationalist lens, not 'Hebrew qua Hebrew.' Of all
the English translations, his contains the most tortured interpretations of the Hebrew in the
post-King James translations.
So now. You don't want three Persons in the Trinity. But you do want TWO or MORE Divine Fathers ??
Besides the Divine and Everlasting Father of the New Testament and Old Testament, how many other Divine Fathers are there? Do not mention Abraham for he is not divine.
I don't 'want' anything, Jaywill. Did you not read where I said that I'm totally fine with your
believing in the Trinity? All I'm saying is that it's a Creedal assertion, not a Scriptural conclusion.
You keep citing portions from the Bible that you think support your claim, but when you actually
look at them, they don't.
Robbie Carrobbie made a good point, though: the term 'Everlasting Father' or 'Eternal Father'
as a title for God doesn't exist as far as I can find in the Bible.
And, mentioning Abraham is totally legitimate despite your distaste for evidence that opposes
your theological framework; Abraham is known as 'father' and he is, according to Jesus, living
everlastingly in heaven.
Nemesio
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Originally posted by Rajk999Verse 12 of chapter says:
What about verse 12?
Can you do the great works that Christ does?
Do you know anybody who can ?
Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes into Me, the works which I do he shall do also; and greater works than these he shall do because I go to the Father."
I use to think that this meant that if Jesus walked on the water then I should be able to walk six feet above the water. Now that, I thought, would be a greater work.
But this should not be the meaning. Only Jesus could accomplish eternal redemption for mankind. I as a disciple cannot do that work which is His alone qualified to do. So there is a limit to the work which He did that all the disciples can do.
What then are the greater works ? First of all they are the greater works in the eyes of God. They are not the greater works in the eyes of PT Barnum, or the in the eyes of George Lukas, or in the eyes of Houdini, or in the eyes of some other sensationalist - illusionist - magician or Holllywood.
They are the works which are great and greater in the eyes of God.
Now what we the disciples are doing is building up the church, the corporate Body of Christ. Christ said that He would build His church -
"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens, and whatever you bind on the earth shall have been bound in the heavens, and whatever you loose on the earth shall have been loosed in the heavens." (Matt. 16:18-20)
The things that He does that the disciples are to do, and the greater things are the things related to the building up of the church. For the church is the corperate expression of Christ, the enlargement of Christ, the continuation of Christ, preserved, resistent to persecution, prevailing, standing, undefeated until the end of the age, and testifying down through the centries in spite of the attacks of the gates of Hades.
I said the greater things are the things "great" in God's estimation not the things "great" in the Satanic world's estimation. To the fallen Satanified world the church is not great at all. To the world the church is a nuisance and Satan seeks ever to corrupt her and make her just like the world.
But the prophecy of the Lord has been fulfilled. Neither spiritual death nor physical death has been able to tear down the church of Christ. she prevails and is glorious becomes some within her are the overcomers.
These are the greater things that the disciples will do. And here we see the Apostle Paul confirm this:
"So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone.
In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord; In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit." (Eph. 3:19-22)
The greater thing are related to the collective growth of the members of Christ's body building up the habitation of God in spirit - the corperate Christ.
He builds His church and the members build with Him by growing in the divine life.
"To Him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus unto all the generations forever and ever. Amen" (Eph. 3:21)
The preaching of the Gospel and the building up of the collective Body of Christ are the greater things in the eyes of God.
And He Himself gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as shepherds and teachers,
For the perfecting of the saints unto the work of ministry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ.
Until we all arrive at the oneness of th efaith and of the fullknowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grow man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ ...
Holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ.
Out from Whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the operation in the measure of each one part,causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love." (See Ephesians 4:11-16)
This growing of God in men and women and building up of His aggregate organic Body in love are the greater works which the disciples will do.
And in the millennial kingdom there will also include more of the miraculous healing for the nations that survive the great tribulation. The apostle did some of this. And the Bible says that we already " have tasted the powers of the age to come." (Hebrews 6:5)