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First, what does Jesus say? 'The Father is in me and I am in the Father.' This is not equivalence; this is not equality.
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I spoke before of coinherance so this is not new to me.
This is mingling . When two or more things are mingled together they remain distinguishable in the combination.
Christ is the mingling of God and man.
"But Jesus cried out and said, He who believes in Me does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me;
And He who beholds Me beholds Him who sent Me." (John 12:44,45)
The Aposlte John purposely recorded for us that Jesus said, when Phillip asked about the Father - " ... and you have not known ... ME .. Phillip. He who has seen Me has seen the Father. How is it that you say, show us the Father."
As Isaiah spoke, the Son given is the Eternal Father.
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This does not mean that Jesus thought as Himself as Divine.
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Yes it does. He knew He was divine and human. He was the mingling of God and man. He is the complete God and the perfect man.
God expressed Himself in submission and obediance as a subjected Son to a Father. If God is perfect then even His expression of obediance and subserviance is also perfect.
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This is a recognition of the 'completeness' mentioned in the other thread, that Jesus thought of Himself as being in full communion with the Father.
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This is absolutely true. I agree. He obeyed the Father. He was sent by the Father. But when He was sent the Father came with Him and in Him. And He said " ... and you have not known Me, Phillip" Me there being the Father whom Phillip asked to see.
This is why the "church fathers" spoke of the Trinity to try to express in words the mystery of this relationship - the Word was with God yet the Word WAS God. (John 1:1)
So I think we need to embrace without question BOTH sides of the revelation. The Father and the Son are distinct. Yet the Father and the Son are equal and coinhere.
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He encouraged His believers to do and be the
same. You see this in verse 20: 'On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are
in me and I in you. By your understanding of verse 10, then believers are also God,
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That is true in this regard, we become the Body of Christ. He alone remains the Head of the organic union. The life and nature of God are dispensed into the members of Christ's Body. God gets into the believers to make them God in life and in nature but not in His Godhead.
The believers receive that communicable attributes of God to be expressed in thier human virtues. We become after all "partakers of the divine nature ( 1 Peter 1:4)
They are transformed into the image of Christ by the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17,18)[/b] And they shall eventually be like Him (1 John 3:2)
Deification of the believers is the ultimate stage of salvation. Theosis has long been taught by many scholars, particularly those of the Greek Orthodox denomination.
God wants to dispense Himself into man for the mingling of God and man. He became a man so that the believers might become God in life and in nature and expression, but not in the Godhead. That is why it speaks of the Body of Christ and Christ the Head of the Body.
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because Jesus is in them and they are in Jesus. This is further clarified by the preceding verse 17, in
which the Spirit will be in the believer, and the following verse 23, Whoever loves me will keep
my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling in him.
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The believers become the dwelling place of God. Another way to put is is the mingling of God and man.
This is a process. But at least one part of the believers is God already. That is thier innermost human spirit. Because the apostle John says that His seed abides in the believers. And they cannot sin because the seed of God which cannot sin abides in them.
So it is a process of learning to live by that implanted seed which is the nature of God and God Himself abiding in the believers to spread into them and mingle into them.
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Again, this indwelling of the Divine is something that the author of this text believed Jesus achieved and expected believers to achieve as well. It's not Divine equivalence.
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We are in the process of achieving the full mingling of God and man.
Here we see that in the church age the believers are in the ongoing process of being perfected into the Triune God:
"And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE.
I in them and You in Me, that they may be PERFECTED into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me." (John 17:22,23)
The Son who is the Eternal Father is therefore building up for Himself a Body of deified and glorified humans as a collective expression of God manifest in the flesh. He was God manifest in the flesh.
He is the Head of the entity as the Triune God to be worship and even more lived. And the believers are the Body headed up as men and women brought into the mingling of God and man.
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But even more damning to your claim is verse 28: If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.
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This is simple the other side of the revelation. This is the other side of the truth which we must embrace.
The Son was subect. The Son was obedient even unto death. The Son was sent and the Son was raised by the Father. Yes He is God the Son (Hebrews 1:8,9)
So the brothers wisely came up with the phrases Trinity and Triune God. They mused over the mysteries long before you and I were born. More importantly, they sought to live in the reality.
The Trinity is for LIVING in God. The Trinity is not for people to have a objective doctrine.
Some people are myopic and can only take one side of the revelation and fight against the other side. So I have no problem with the Son saying that the Father is greater than He. That is simply or rather profoundly the other aspect of the Trinity.
Perhaps the rest of John 14 you bring up I can address in another post, for room's sake.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWhy do you say that ?
oh, jaywill, now you are entering the reals of fantasy !
The Trinity is for the dispensing of God into man.
Why do you think He came to save man? Was it to take him to a happy place called Heaven forever?
Why do you think God is going through all of this.? He is imparting Himself into man.
www.godseconomy.org
Originally posted by jaywillbecause quite simply, god is a spirit, and as we both know, those worshiping him , must do so in spirit and truth, humans are humans, we are not divine beings like Christ, god and the angels. the spirit (holy spirit) has been sent to help us, 'the spirit of truth', i think it is termed, now you are trying to assert that we can become divine, that we can be like god, knowing good and bad, fee moral agents, now where have i heard that before, mmmmmm
Why do you say that ?
The Trinity is for the dispensing of God into man.
Why do you think He came to save man? Was it to take him to a happy place called Heaven forever?
Why do you think God is going through all of this.? He is imparting Himself into man.
www.godseconomy.org
Originally posted by jaywillQuestion : So can you do the Same works done by Christ ?
Verse 12 of chapter says:
[b]Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes into Me, the works which I do he shall do also; and greater works than these he shall do because I go to the Father."
I use to think that this meant that if Jesus walked on the water then I should be able to walk six feet above the water. Now that, I thought, would be a gr ...[text shortened]... t we already " have tasted the powers of the age to come." (Hebrews 6:5)[/b]
Answer: NO.
Thanks for your answer.
Now the long drawn out explanation on Greater works ... your answer is for 10yr olds. Please revise your answer that will make sense to adults.
Originally posted by jaywillNothing you said actually leads to the conclusion that the author thought that Jesus was Divine.
[b]=====================================
First, what does Jesus say? 'The Father is in me and I am in the Father.' This is not equivalence; this is not equality.
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I spoke before of coinherance so this is not new to me.
This is mingling . When two or more things are mingled together th ...[text shortened]... rest of John 14 you bring up I can address in another post, for room's sake.[/b]
Indeed, your concession that we co-mingle with God (a term that I think is exceptionally beautiful,
by the way) speaks against it. Jesus says that He co-mingles (or sometimes I use the word indwell)
with God and that believers ought to do the same. Thus, Jesus is actually showing us how He is
like us, just farther along the path of Christian enlightenment, having become 'perfect/complete'
through the co-mingling.
That is, Jesus became one with the 'Body of God' just as believers are to become one with that
same Body. And, as you say, if deification is the ultimate stage of salvation, then God is not merely
a Trinity, but an Infinity (a picture a rather like).
As you say, a person has in him a seed of the Divine. I also agree that the author of the Gospels
believed that seed came to full bloom in Jesus. But, it is clear that they thought that such a
potential exists in everyone who comes to believe. In that way, they only viewed Jesus as a
Teacher, a Guide, a Light to the World, and not Divine.
Your quotation from the 17th chapter continues to demonstrate that: believers are to be one
with God as Jesus is one with God. Through the special graces God bestowed upon Jesus,
believers are able to walk along the 'one way' to come to that same level of grace with God.
Your paraphrase from Hebrews was a bit disingenuous, though. It does not say 'God the Son'
anywhere in that text. Indeed the opening salutation -- Grace to you and peace from God, our
Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ -- again puts God and Jesus in juxtaposed relief. We see this
again in 7:25 -- Consequently [Jesus] is able for all time to save those who approach God through
him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. Again, we see Jesus as an intermediary
to God, not as God Himself.
And you ignored the most salient Scripture verse (St John 14:1) in your discussion, in which
Jesus says 'Believe in God, believe also in me.'
Nemesio
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIt seems to me that you haven't been able to tell me what the correct understanding of the Holy Spirit actaully is. Jesus said quite a few things concerning this. For example , what was he saying when he said " I must go away so that the Comforter can come" or " may they be one with me Father as I am one with you " ??????
no, you stated that it started from a premise, not me, i was only agreeing with you, and no i do not accept that Christ would teach us something mysterious, on the contrary, his teaching is noted for its simplicity and use of everyday illustrations and extreme lack of verbosity, so that ultimately the listener is left in no doubt as to the point of h ...[text shortened]... od, godhead or whatever other thing the trinitarians may wish to call/ define their doctrine by.
He said that he would be with us until the end of the age and it's pretty clear that the Holy Spirit is the mechanism by which this happens.
Also , think about it for a minute. What is the nature of God? Is he Holy , yes. Is he Spirit? Yes. Is God supposed to move amongst men invisibly. Yes. hmmmmm interesting...so what is the Holy Spirit then?
It's all very well ciriticising the trinity but what's your own understanding of these things? The disciples themselves spent much of their time telling Jesus how confused they were and asking him what he meant. It's also clear that the Truth was not complete at the point when he died ("when he the comforter comes he will guide you into all truth" ) - so why be guided into a truth that is already understood?
The problem is that you don't have an alternative to present right now. I'm not interested in your arguments against the trinity , I want to know what your alternative is.
BTW Are you a Jehovah's Witness?
Originally posted by knightmeisterwe haven't even discussed the holy spirit, as for the whole discussion with regard to Christ being one with the father, Nemesio has covered it quite comprehensively and i have nothing more to say that he has not already stated in the most convincing, clear and succinct manner.
It seems to me that you haven't been able to tell me what the correct understanding of the Holy Spirit actaully is. Jesus said quite a few things concerning this. For example , what was he saying when he said " I must go away so that the Comforter can come" or " may they be one with me Father as I am one with you " ??????
He said that he would be w want to know what your alternative is.
BTW Are you a Jehovah's Witness?
it is the trinitarians who are lost here, i don know if you have noticed, the confusion is entirely with the advocates of the doctrine, not with those who oppose it, we are quite clear on the matter, it is historically pagan in origin, it was unknown in the time of Christ and did not enter official church doctrine until the fourth century. the discussion with jaywill has proved more fruitful than i could have hoped for, he himself established for me that no one is termed the eternal father except Christ and i already knew that the title the almighty is reserved exclusively for God himself.
you yourself have tried to assert that Christ was teaching something mysterious when this is utterly and completely diametrically opposite to his character and what we know of his methods as revealed in scripture.
As rajk999 states how can their be an alternative to something that is non existent, i dunno, perhaps if you could specify specific scripture then we have a point of reference which serves as a basis for discussion, otherwise thoughts become like smoke rings in the mind, spiraling upwards in a temporary nature and dissipating into nothingness.
as to the question of what i am, i have already stated to jaywill that i am a human being and wish to be considered as such, my father is a roman catholic and my mother an Irish protestant, and where i live, with such close proximity to Ireland, i have seen enough religious prejudice to last a thousand lifetimes based on what others perceive us to be, please do not make the same mistake!
regards Robert.
Originally posted by Rajk999======================
Question : So can you do the Same works done by Christ ?
Answer: NO.
Thanks for your answer.
Now the long drawn out explanation on Greater works ... your answer is for 10yr olds. Please revise your answer that will make sense to adults.
Question : So can you do the Same works done by Christ ?
Answer: NO.
Thanks for your answer.
Now the long drawn out explanation on Greater works ... your answer is for 10yr olds. Please revise your answer that will make sense to adults.
============================
When Christ said that the works He does the disciples shall also do, as I said, He could not have meant the act of redemption for the sins of the world. The unique accomplishments to carrying out eternal redemption are His works and His alone.
But the members of His Body - the Body of Christ ARE for the carrying out the works of Christ the Head. That is why God has provided Him a Body upon the earth - to carry out His works.
The works are the works the He directs the members of the Body to do, by His life and by His direction. They are not the works that you demand in a sensational way to feed your curiosity.
The continued existence of the church upon the earth after 20 centries of attacks from both within and without testify that the works of Christ and greater works the Head of the Body has directed its members to do.
Of course this is also a matter of process, growth, and coming into maturity. We are learning more and more to come into the life of Christ and the works of Christ.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie=========================================
because quite simply, god is a spirit, and as we both know, those worshiping him , must do so in spirit and truth, humans are humans, we are not divine beings like Christ, god and the angels. the spirit (holy spirit) has been sent to help us, 'the spirit of truth', i think it is termed, now you are trying to assert that we can become divine, that we ...[text shortened]... e like god, knowing good and bad, fee moral agents, now where have i heard that before, mmmmmm
because quite simply, god is a spirit, and as we both know, those worshiping him , must do so in spirit and truth, humans are humans, we are not divine beings like Christ, god and the angels. the spirit (holy spirit) has been sent to help us, 'the spirit of truth', i think it is termed, now you are trying to assert that we can become divine, that we can be like god, knowing good and bad, fee moral agents, now where have i heard that before, mmmmmm
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For your meditation and prayer:
" ... His divine power has granted to us all things which relate to life and godliness ... He has granted us precious and exceedingly great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature..." (See 2 Peter 1:3,4)
The believes in Christ have become "partakers of the divine nature". Peter did not write that we have just become "worshippers of the divine nature". Nor merely "obversers," or "pectators," or merely "witnesses" of the divine nature.
Second Peter 1:4 says the believes in Christ partake and participate in "the divine nature".
If you would think about what "born again" should really mean it may be clearer. The life "born" into the believers is the life of God and Christ.
First John states this: "Everyone who has been begotten of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God." (1 John 3:9,10)
One passage says that the believers are become "partakers of the divine nature." The other passages says that they do not practice sin because the "seed" of God which cannot sin, whose nature is a non-sinning life, abides in him.
This is why I spoke of God dispensing Himself into man. This is why I wrote of God taking a journey into man. His salvation is a process of Him imparting His life and nature into man.
The Father is the Source. The Son is the Course. And the Holy Spirit is the Flow.
You might consider the electrical power plant off in the distance as the source. Then the cables which stretch over the miles connecting our homes is the course of the electrical power. Finally the transmission or the flow brings the electrical power from the source, over the course, pushed by the flow and into our homes.
In this analogy the Father is like the power plant. He is the Source of the divine life. The Son is like the cables. He is the channel or the course connecting the divine life to human beings. Lastly the Holy Spirit is like the flow or the transmission imparting the divine life into the beings for them to live.
It is not a perfect analogy. But the Father is the Source. The Son is the channel, the course. And the Holy Spirit is the flow and the transmission.
The goal is to dispense God into man for the mingling of God and man.
Sons of God means the enlargement of God into humanity. It is not that God can get bigger. It is that God can be dispensed into man. Through His imparting Himself into man He expands His presence into man's being.
I will comment on the Holy Spirit latter. And KM has some very good comments. But not only is the Father and the Son TWO and yet ONE, so also is the Son and the Holy Spirit TWO and yet ONE.
You may understand readily that they are TWO. But the ancient brothers who coined the term Trinity had to confess that they ALSO were ONE in a mysterious triune way.
"Now the Lord is the Spirit ..." (2 Cor. 3:17)
The Lord Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 4:5) is the Spirit - the Holy Spirit.
When they considered their EXPERIENCE and they considered the Bible they had to come up with a term like Trinity to encompase all aspects of this revelation.
They experienced and they READ that the Lord Jesus also WAS the Spirit. I think experience is vital. It is probably the key getting into the mystery of the Trinity.
They further read that " ... the Last Adam [Christ] BECAME a life giving Spirit" ( 1 Cor. 15:45)
Jesus Christ sent the Spirit from the Father on one hand. But on the other hand Jesus Christ became the life giving Spirit. So Triune God or Trinity became a way to express these mysterious truths. The words themselves are not in the Bible. But they express the truth of the Bible and of our experience as Christians.
Originally posted by Nemesio===============================
Nothing you said actually leads to the conclusion that the author thought that Jesus was Divine.
Indeed, your concession that we co-mingle with God (a term that I think is exceptionally beautiful,
by the way) speaks against it. Jesus says that He co-mingles (or sometimes I use the word indwell)
with God and that believers ought to do the same. Thus, J our discussion, in which
Jesus says 'Believe in God, believe also in me.'
Nemesio
And you ignored the most salient Scripture verse (St John 14:1) in your discussion, in which
Jesus says 'Believe in God, believe also in me.'
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If I because of time have not addressed a comment it is not because of ignoring it.
And if that IS the case, you have "ignored" so much of what I have pointed out I don't know when you can ever catch up.
But according to your comments above I will repeat what I have written on this forum before. This is not the first time I clarified this
When I say that deification makes of God in life and nature but not in the Godhead I have SAID.
1.) The believers do not become an object of worship.
2.) The beleivers do not become omnipotent.
3.) The believers do not become omniscient.
4.) The believers do not become omnipresent.
5.) The believers do not become Creators of universes.
In this mingling of God and man the Triune God remains the Head of the entity. There are non-communicable attributes that are not passed on to the sons of God.
Your complaints are are concerning the limitation in which man cannot become God, limitations which I have already enumerated, which you wish to act as if I have not enumerated them.
Having said that (again) the son of a cat is a cat. The son of a horse is a horse. The son of a dolphin is a dolphin. The son of a whale is a whale, and the son of a human being is a human being.
What is the son of God ? The son of God is of the family of God. And I defy you to try to contradict that logic. The son of God is God.
The Headship over this entity is God who became a man a God-man. He is the object of our worship because He is God as a man.
The Body of this entity is God by impartation and salvation. The believers are not as pre-existent Godhead who ever and always lived as the Son. But as those created and infused with the life of God - they are sons of God - God extended and passed on from within Himself into His children.
These matters are profound and take some time to develop and make clear.
Some of you critics want in a Internet post what volumes have been written to explain.
I can write a post here. I cannot write a book here. If you want more indepth dealing with problems (many of which are legitimate areas of concern) I can refer you to longer and more techinical articles or books.
I don't ask that you agree with everything. I do ask that you appreciate that some matters take time and space to discuss from all angles to solve certain theological issues.
Here we go again. We must go over this another time.
In the experience of the disciples of Jesus there was no discernible difference between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They could not subjectively distingush any seperation.
Romans 8:9-11 -
"But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you. (v.9a)
Yet if anyone does not have the SPirit of Christ, he is not of Him. (v.9b)
But if CHRIST be in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. (v.10)
And if the Spirit of the One [Father] who raised Christ Jesus [Son] from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies thorugh His Spirit who indwells you." (v.11) (Romans 8:9-11)
Now Who indwells the disciples? Who dwells in the dicisples ?
The Spirit of God. But the Spirit of God is used inerchangeably with the title the Spirit of Christ. Yet the title the Spirit of Christ is used interchangeably with the title CHRIST. Yet CHRIST who indwells them is used interchangeably with the title "the Spirit of the One Who raised Christ Jesus from the dead."
The Spirit of God = The Spirit of Christ = Christ = The Spirit of the One Who raised Christ Jesus from the dead.
Neither Paul nor the disciples who were in this experience could detect any separation between Father, Son, and Spirit.
Furthermore Paul writes that the Spirit of the One Who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will GIVE LIFE. Yet in 1 Cor. 15:45 Christ - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit."
So the ancient brothers who experienced and enjoyed God and were not just trying to mentally invent formulas, came up with the phrase Trinity to preseve the truth of the unity and diversity of the "persons" of the Godhead.
In thier experience subjectively where one was the others also were. They were one another. They were three - one, triune.