Jesus said, "you are to be perfect"

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
biggest load of tosh i ever heard, here is the verse in its context and deviod of emotional claptrap and archaic language, and i quote,

Mathew 5:43 'you heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy. However, I say to you continue to love your enemies and to pray for those persecuting you that you may prove yourselves s ...[text shortened]... e who say so better have references, because there are plenty of verses to the contrary!

and just as a side point, that the Kingdom is not a kingdom of judgment is tosh, those who say so better have references, because there are plenty of verses to the contrary!--------------RC---------------

You really think heaven will be populated by people who are judging each other? Or do you think there will be lots of love and acceptance there?

Originally posted by knightmeister
and just as a side point, that the Kingdom is not a kingdom of judgment is tosh, those who say so better have references, because there are plenty of verses to the contrary!--------------RC---------------

You really think heaven will be populated by people who are judging each other? Or do you think there will be lots of love and acceptance there?

In the book of Matthew the kingdom of the heavens does not mean the kingdom located and restricted to heaven. It means the kingdom the source of which is from heaven.

The kingdom which originates from heaven is the kingdom of the heavens.

Therefore Jesus taught His disciples to pray "Your kingdom come".

The kingdom of the heavens results in the meek inheriting the earth (Matt. 5:5) .

Originally posted by knightmeister
The kingdom is a kingdom of love not a kingdom of judgement. To enter you leave your judgements behind and embrace love. If you try to be perfect then you should try to be perfect in love. Therefore , instead of being idignant that this "schmuck" is in heaven , you would be rejoicing for another saved soul. The love and compassion in your heart should . But a righteousness without love and compassion is no righteousness at all.......

I agree with this. And it requires another life - the life of God. It requires that the Spirit of God transform the believer and build him or her up into the Body of Christ in love.

We do not possess the ability to love or live this way in our Adamic nature. We must be born of the Perfect Father and matured in life by His life and nature.

This passages shows that the believers in Jesus are partakers of the divine nature of the Father:

" ... exceedingly great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust." (2 Pet. 1:4)

The Christians are not merely worshippers of the divine nature. Nor are they merely spectators of that divine nature as observers or witnesses only. They participate and partake of the divine nature.

This passage shows that the Holy Spirit must transform the believers with that nature:

"But we all with unvieled face, beholding and reflecting as a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:17)


The nature comes with the indwelling Spirit. And the divine Spirit with the divine nature transforms the believers into the same image as Christ. If we are normal He does so from one degree of expression to another to another - by degrees until we are perfected as the heavenly Father Whose life the believers have received. He transforms them.

Originally posted by jaywill
I agree with this. And it requires another life - the life of God. It requires that the Spirit of God transform the believer and build him or her up into the Body of Christ in love.

We do not possess the ability to love or live this way in our Adamic nature. We must be born of the Perfect Father and matured in life by His life and nature.

This pass ...[text shortened]... erfected as the heavenly Father Whose life the believers have received. He transforms them.

Who should I believe, I wonder.

First there is Christ who said very clearly (over and over) that having faith and doing good works leads to salvation.

Then there is the OSAS gang - Jaywill, JosephW, KW, Epi - that preaches .... well .. something else.

I wonder .... Hard decision. 😀

Originally posted by Rajk999
Who should I believe, I wonder.

First there is Christ who said very clearly (over and over) that having faith and doing good works leads to salvation.

Then there is the OSAS gang - Jaywill, JosephW, KW, Epi - that preaches .... well .. something else.

I wonder .... Hard decision. 😀

try this for size it may 'help' you formulate a more informed descicion, which lord knows a poor athiest needs nowadays!

now if the meek are to inherit the earth as is clearly and evidently shown by jaywill in the verse he quoted mattew 5:5 and Psalm 37:9-11 from which Christ quotes, why then is there a need to go to heaven, and if everyone who dies is supposed to go to heaven (a premise that i do not accept the bible teaches), who will be left to inherit the earth? that the kingdom is itself restricted to a heavenly place is clearly evident, Paul states that it is the Jerusalem above, Galations 4:26, i.e. that the earthly Jerusalem was the anti typical representation of the heavenly Jerusalem, which had a king and judges as well as loyal subjects, therefore if this is the case it would appear to be evident that while the heavenly kingdom is not earthly but heavenly , yet it must exercise its dominion over earthly subjects and affairs, otherwise why would Christ ask us to pray for the will of the father to be done in heaven, also upon the earth. this is in full harmony with the statements of others, Peter in particular 2 Peter 3:13, which talks of a new heavens , (the kingdom government which has been cleansed of the corruptive influence of Satan and other demonic forces Revelation 12 7-12) and a new earth, not the literal earth, but a cleansed society of righteously inclined people (psalm 37 -9-11) , those in opposition to God having been executed by Christ and angelic forces.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Who should I believe, I wonder.

First there is Christ who said very clearly (over and over) that having faith and doing good works leads to salvation.

Then there is the OSAS gang - Jaywill, JosephW, KW, Epi - that preaches .... well .. something else.

I wonder .... Hard decision. 😀

Do you mean that Second Peter and Second Corinthians are not the teaching of Jesus ?

If so I disagree. The Gospels are Jesus teaching while standing on the earth. The New Testament Epistles of Second Peter and Second Corinthians are Jesus' teaching from heaven through His apostles.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i have already answered, with scriptural references what Christ meant, i hope i will not need to remind you of those references, because Christ was clearly referring to his followers as trying to be more complete in their love by embracing even their enemies as the context shows,to imply this does not require effort on the part of individuals is incr ...[text shortened]... is something quite distinct from whether God himself is complete/perfect in the absolute sense.

Evidently I need to be more specific. Jesus does not simply say, "You are to be perfect (complete)". Jesus also says, "as your heavenly Father is perfect (complete)". It is clear that the standard is to be as complete as God and not just "trying to be more complete". From what I can tell, you have chosen to lower this standard because of what Paul said in Romans 3:23. Why do you choose to place the teachings of Paul above those of Jesus?

Originally posted by jaywill
Do you mean that Second Peter and Second Corinthians are not the teaching of Jesus ?

If so I disagree. The Gospels are Jesus teaching while standing on the earth. The New Testament Epistles of Second Peter and Second Corinthians are Jesus' teaching from heaven through His apostles.

Those passages are complimentary to Christ's basic teaching of the importance of good works.

Originally posted by knightmeister
.. Instead what I hear from your comments is a hardness of heart , resentment and judgement. Such a heart cannot enter the kingdom until it softens. It is you who is crazy if you don't understand God's love. ......

I neither said nor implied much of what you accuse me of.

I wonder if you realise how stupid, foolish & JUDGMENTAL you sound.

Originally posted by jaywill
Do you mean that Second Peter and Second Corinthians are not the teaching of Jesus ?

If so I disagree. The Gospels are Jesus teaching while standing on the earth. The New Testament Epistles of Second Peter and Second Corinthians are Jesus' teaching from heaven through His apostles.

hahahahahahahaha, hehehehe, please stop the laughter is agony!

Originally posted by Rajk999
I neither said nor implied much of what you accuse me of.

I wonder if you realise how stupid, foolish & JUDGMENTAL you sound.

I do not seek to judge you. If you were to see God's incredible love for what it is I would be pleased as punch. I have no idea why you want to make this a battle about who is the least judgemental or something.

All I did was to stress God's love. Your comments seem to reflect a hardness or judgement in your heart . It's as if you resent the idea that someone can make it to heaven on grace (just like the prodigal son's brother resented his brother). All I'm saying is that with love in your heart you just rejoice. Love keeps no records of wrongs remember.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Who should I believe, I wonder.

First there is Christ who said very clearly (over and over) that having faith and doing good works leads to salvation.

Then there is the OSAS gang - Jaywill, JosephW, KW, Epi - that preaches .... well .. something else.

I wonder .... Hard decision. 😀

First there is Christ who said very clearly (over and over) that having faith and doing good works leads to salvation.

Then there is the OSAS gang - Jaywill, JosephW, KW, Epi - that preaches .... well .. something else.------------rajk---------------


That's only because in your mind you hear something that we are not saying. Your perception is that we don't value works and we don't think a man must transform his behaviour. However, if you look at St Paul's teachings you will see that he is tough on sin and tough on behaviour.

It's all about your perception. You have never understood that it is the FALSE APPLICATION of grace that you are railing against and not the sound theology of grace. It's very serious case of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Evidently I need to be more specific. Jesus does not simply say, "You are to be perfect (complete)". Jesus also says, "as your heavenly Father is perfect (complete)". It is clear that the standard is to be as complete as God and not just "trying to be more complete". From what I can tell, you have chosen to lower this standard because of what Paul said in Romans 3:23. Why do you choose to place the teachings of Paul above those of Jesus?

If a man is trying 100% to be complete then what more can God possibly ask of him?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Evidently I need to be more specific. Jesus does not simply say, "You are to be perfect (complete)". Jesus also says, "as your heavenly Father is perfect (complete)". It is clear that the standard is to be as complete as God and not just "trying to be more complete". From what I can tell, you have chosen to lower this standard because of what Paul said in Romans 3:23. Why do you choose to place the teachings of Paul above those of Jesus?

i have done nothing of the sort and you know it and your insinuation of such is dastardly and underhand and you should be ashamed of yourself for resorting to such trickery and deception, the reference to Paul's words were clearly to show that all humans are in a state of imperfection, we make mistakes !, it is unavoidable !, because of this fact we sin. If you would like to refute this then go ahead, but i warn you, trying to do so is not only futile based on scripture, but you may even eventually negate the sacrifice that Christ gave holding it to be of no worth, because if we do not sin, why then do we need a sacrifice that makes atonement on our behalf? that is able to declare (note not make righteous, simply to declare righteous, because humans can never truly be righteous while in a state of imperfection in the absolute sense due to the sin that is inherent, inherited from Adam). Now what does sinning mean, other than missing the perfect mark set by god himself!

the reference to Paul's words were therefore intended to put the verse under question not only in its immediate context, but in the context of the bible as a whole, a practice that Christians would do well to adopt, because then you will be able to ascertain the complete picture, rather than snapshots!

Originally posted by FabianFnas
This verse is taken out of context.
Read a few verses before too, and the meaning of this verse will be chrystal clear.

Why don't you offer the verses in question on the thread and give your explanation for why they show that the verse was being taken out of context?

It's a common cheap cop-out for Christians to simply say "you're interpreting it wrong, it's out of context, read more" without elaboration. Many Christians do this and it shows intellectual laziness or dishonesty in my opinion.