20 Oct 08
Originally posted by robbie carrobieExcuse me my dear friends jaywill and rob -just a note: Plato did it allright!
not only do i not, 'believe in a triune god', which is essentially not only blasphemous, but is clearly of a pagan origin. there is NO CONCEPT OF A TRIUNE GOD IN THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES NOR IN THE GREEK SCRIPTURES, IT IS A DISHONOR TO GOD AND BETRAYS A REAL LACK OF UNDERSTANDING AS TO THE NATURE AND DIVINITY OF CHRIST. It is a concept of Hellenistic o ...[text shortened]... ds - robbie carrobie son of a thousand opening traps, usually by his opponents!
The early Christians were in conflict with the ancient Greek religion however they felt sympathy for some Greek theories, particularly the ones by Plato and by the Stoic philosopher Zeno. The oldest and probably the original form of the Trinity is found in classical Hinduism, which evolved around 2000BC and was surely known to Plato (Zeno's philosophy had rather Taoistic aspects). Plato was inspired by the divine Trinity "Tri-murti" ( Three-forms) consisting of Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva (Brahma, the Father or supreme God, Vishnu, the incarnate Word and Creator, and Siva, the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit or Ghost). It is an inseparable Unity though Three in Form. Worshippers were told, ad still are, to worship them as one deity.
In one Purana -Hindu bible- a devotee addresses the Trinity of Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva and he claims that he recognises only one God and asks the Three Lords which is the true divinity that he might address to him alone his vows and adorations. But the three Gods, Brahma, Vishnu and Siva, they told him that there is no real distinction between them and that they are One under Three Forms by the acts of Creation, Preservation and Destruction.
Plato was inspired by this Eastern philosophy and the Christians were inspired by Plato.
Now please forgive this miserable atheist and do enjoy your conversation;
😵
20 Oct 08
1 edit
Originally posted by knightmeisterRationalizations aside, you are still a liar.
You continue to state as fact things of which you are ignorant.
----------ToOne---------------------------
If you really believed in the active Father God of Jesus then you would just openly declare it , there would be nothing stopping you. It's reasonable assumption. There is also evidence from our other discussions (eg omniscience) that you fin f and was hardly walking on thin ice when I told my friend they wouldn't find any.
If you want to get out of a hole, stop digging.
If you are making an assumption, then qualify it as such. However, you don't qualify your statements, even though this has been pointed out to you repeatedly. This shows you a knowing and willing liar.
Luke 6:46
"Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?"
You should consider following the teachings of Jesus instead of your ego.
20 Oct 08
4 edits
Originally posted by black beetleThere is really no need go into history if the question is "Is there a teaching of a Trinity in the Bible?"
Excuse me my dear friends jaywill and rob -just a note: Plato did it allright!
The early Christians were in conflict with the ancient Greek religion however they felt sympathy for some Greek theories, particularly the ones by Plato and by the Stoic philosopher Zeno. The oldest and probably the original form of the Trinity is found in classical Hindui by Plato.
Now please forgive this miserable atheist and do enjoy your conversation;
😵
Isaiah 9:6 - "For a child is born to us, A Son is given to us; And the government is upon His shoulder;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace ..."
There are two lines in this prophecy. The "child... born" who is called Mighty God. That is one line. The other line is that the "Son ... given" is called Eternal Father.
A human child who is born, spent nine months in the womb of a woman, is the Mighty God. This is astounding. How can a born human child be the Mighty God ?
Then another astounding fact comes, the Son given is the Eternal Father. Even more so, how can a Son be the Eternal Father?
This prophecy is so emphatic that even many of my trinitarian friends cannot take it. Some evangelical Christians even cannot hardly accept that the Son here is the Father. But if he is called the Eternal Father it must be that He is the Eternal Father. Just like He is called the Prince of Peace because He is the Prince of Peace.
What it amounts to is that God is the Father as well as the Son. There is only one Divine Eternal Father in the Bible. There are not two Eternal Fathers in the Bible.
So without having to go into Plato and Hellenistic philosophy we see that there is a teaching in the Bible that God was incarnated as a man. And this man is at once the Mighty God and the Eternal Father.
Nothing is said about the Holy Spirit in this particular prophecy. But it should be enough to prove that the Bible itself shows that the Father and the Son are both God.
20 Oct 08
In the previous post I proved that there is a teaching in the Old Testament that the child and Son is God, the Mighty God and the Eternal Father.
That argues for the latter term "Trinity" which Christians came up with.
Now we see also that there is a teaching that Jesus the Lord is the Holy Spirit too:
First Corinthians 3:17 -- " Now the Lord is the Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom."
Who is "the Lord" in this passage? The Lord means the Lord Jesus Christ, for Paul writes "For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord ..." (2 Cor. 4:5)
The Lord Jesus Christ is the Spirit according to 2 Cor. 3:17. So the Son is not only the Eternal Father but He is also the Spirit. Yet they are distinct - Father and Son and Son and Spirit. They are distinct yet they are not seperate.
The Lord is the Spirit. And the last Adam, who is Jesus Christ, became the Spirit:
"... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
Christ became the life imparting and life giving Holy Spirit. So Paul writes "The Lord is the Spirit."
The word Trinity is not in the Bible. The word came about to discribe the revelation in the Bible that God was Father and Son and Holy Spirit. The attacks against the Person of Christ from different angles gave rise to the invention of the term Trinity.
But the fact of such a teaching, as I have proved, pre-dates the invention of the term. The Father and Son and Holy Spirit are each God in the Bible.
They coexist from eternity to eternity. They coinhere. Each is eternal. Each is God. So we Christians have a teaching of the three - one God.
20 Oct 08
Originally posted by jaywillI am not at all a scholar of the Bible, but you admit that over here there 's nothing more said about the Holy Spirit. In addition, in my opinion just a mere note/ prophecy regarding the nature of the Christian God looks unsufficient for the devotees of this religion and leaves too much room for elaboration, particularly when we are aware of the fact that the concept of the Trinity was by that time well known and used in detail and very carefully by many religions and philosophers.
There is really no need go into history if the question is "Is there a teaching of a Trinity in the Bible?"
Isaiah 9:6 - [b]"For a child is born to us, A Son is given to us; And the government is upon His shoulder;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace ..."
There are two lines in this pr ...[text shortened]... be enough to prove that the Bible itself shows that the Father and the Son are both God.[/b]
Anyway jaywill pal I wish not to intervene in your interesting discussion with rob, please do keep up;
20 Oct 08
Originally posted by black beetleis there no end to this man wisdom, alas between you and i he claims to be atheistic in outlook, but under that cool exterior is that eternal torment between the platonic chariot of the soul, the white horse dragging him upwards towards Christ and enlightenment, to inner peace and tranquility, to knowledge and truth and that dark horse dragging him spiraling downwards in a kaleidoscopic orgy of fine verse, fast Scottish women, and the finest malt whiskeys, the highlands and islands has to offer! oh wretched one! give up your soul, the white horse hath claimed the victory and virtue stands like a goddess before thy path!
Excuse me my dear friends jaywill and rob -just a note: Plato did it allright!
The early Christians were in conflict with the ancient Greek religion however they felt sympathy for some Greek theories, particularly the ones by Plato and by the Stoic philosopher Zeno. The oldest and probably the original form of the Trinity is found in classical Hindui ...[text shortened]... by Plato.
Now please forgive this miserable atheist and do enjoy your conversation;
😵
20 Oct 08
Originally posted by jaywillOK jaywill, I saw not this reply of yours before my recent post;
In the previous post I proved that there is a teaching in the Old Testament that the child and Son is God, the Mighty God and the Eternal Father.
That argues for the latter term "Trinity" which Christians came up with.
Now we see also that there is a teaching that Jesus the Lord is the Holy Spirit too:
[b]First Corinthians 3:17 -- " Now the Lord ...[text shortened]... h is eternal. Each is God. So we Christians have a teaching of the three - one God.
20 Oct 08
Originally posted by jaywillno, this is untrue, because the references which i initially gave say otherwise, that this teaching was adopted, not by the apostles or Christ, but came much later, in the fourth century, after the great apostacy which Christ foretold, how can one deny the scripture, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ - Deuteronomy 6:4
There is really no need go into history if the question is "Is there a teaching of a Trinity in the Bible?"
Isaiah 9:6 - [b]"For a child is born to us, A Son is given to us; And the government is upon His shoulder;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace ..."
There are two lines in this pr ...[text shortened]... be enough to prove that the Bible itself shows that the Father and the Son are both God.[/b]
20 Oct 08
Originally posted by robbie carrobieo ye nutty Scotty numptie I 'm an atheist allright although I love em Horsies -and I love them Rooks and them Jokers too, plus the Emprrrrrress
is there no end to this man wisdom, alas between you and i he claims to be atheistic in outlook, but under that cool exterior is that eternal torment between the platonic chariot of the soul, the white horse dragging him upwards towards Christ and enlightenment, to inner peace and tranquility, to knowledge and truth and that dark horse dragging him s ...[text shortened]... soul, the white horse hath claimed the victory and virtue stands like a goddess before thy path!
😵
20 Oct 08
1 edit
Originally posted by black beetle======================================
I am not at all a scholar of the Bible, but you admit that over here there 's nothing more said about the Holy Spirit. In addition, in my opinion just a mere note/ prophecy regarding the nature of the Christian God looks unsufficient for the devotees of this religion and leaves too much room for elaboration, particularly when we are aware of the fact th ...[text shortened]... jaywill pal I wish not to intervene in your interesting discussion with rob, please do keep up;
I am not at all a scholar of the Bible, but you admit that over here there 's nothing more said about the Holy Spirit.
==========================================
The Holy Spirit is God and the Holy Spirit is eternal as God is eternal.
1.) The Apostle Peter told Ananias that his lying to the Holy Spirit was his lying to God Himself:
"Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to deceive the Holy Spirit ... You have not lied to men but to God" (See Acts 5:2 - 4)
By this passage we know that God is the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit is God.
2.) The writer of the books of Hebrews makes reference to "the eternal Spirit".
"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself to God purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God." (Heb 9:11)
By this passage we know that the Holy Spirit is the eternal Spirit. He is God and He is eternal even as the Father is the eternal Father in Isiaiah 9:6.
I have now proved that the Father is God. I have proved that the Son is God. And I have proved that the Holy Spirit is God as well.
The Triune God is a biblical teaching understood rightly.
Furthermore in Matthew 28 the disciples are to baptize the converts into the ONE name of "Father - Son - Holy Spirit".
"Go therefore and disciple all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 28:19a)
Notice that Jesus did not say into the NAMES as in plural. He said baptize them into the one and singular name. And what is that name? The one name is really "Father - Son - Holy Spirit".
One God in Three Persons. And because it is so exceedingly profound I can only borrow the word "Persons" because of the limitation of the human language.
I would rather say "One God in three _____" . That is leave it blank because human language fails me to express such a thought. But I have borrowed the word "Persons".
20 Oct 08
2 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobie======================================
no, this is untrue, because the references which i initially gave say otherwise, that this teaching was adopted, not by the apostles or Christ, but came much later, in the fourth century, after the great apostacy which Christ foretold, how can one deny the scripture, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ - Deuteronomy 6:4
no, this is untrue, because the references which i initially gave say otherwise, that this teaching was adopted, not by the apostles or Christ, but came much later, in the fourth century, after the great apostacy which Christ foretold, how can one deny the scripture, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ - Deuteronomy 6:4
=============================================
Did the prophet Isaiah write that prophecy ( Isa. 9:6) before or after the 4th century AD ?
20 Oct 08
2 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobie=======================================
c'mon jay will my friend, what is this, you know it was written before that, what is your point! However the verse in Deuteronomy was written before the one in Isaiah!
c'mon jay will my friend, what is this, you know it was written before that, what is your point! However the verse in Deuteronomy was written before the one in Isiah!
===============================================
We'll come to Deuteronomy.
Right now the point is that the teaching of the Father and the Son being both God was written in Isaiah's prophecy far pre-dating the invention of the word Trinity in your latter so called Christian centries.
You have to acknolwedge therefore that the thought of God being mysteriously Father and Son far predates the usage of the word Trinity in the 4th Century AD.
Do you agree with me?
20 Oct 08
Originally posted by jaywillI agree that the scripture in Isaiah predates the forth century which was the time that it took for the doctrine of the trinity to find its way into the church, however that the trinity was already evident in ancient pagan religions is also true, also i do not hold that the reference in Isaiah has any bearing on the father and the son being the same person, in view of the aforementioned scripture in Deuteronomy and others - remember we must look at scriptures not only in their immediate context, but in the context of the bible as a whole, because i believe that 'all scripture is inspired of God'.
[b]=======================================
c'mon jay will my friend, what is this, you know it was written before that, what is your point! However the verse in Deuteronomy was written before the one in Isiah!
===============================================
We'll come to Deuteronomy.
Right now the point is that the teaching of the Father and t ...[text shortened]... n far predates the usage of the word Trinity in the 4th Century AD.
Do you agree with me?[/b]