Jesus said, "you are to be perfect"

Originally posted by no1marauder
Here's from Matthew 5:38-48 in the American Standard Version:

38 Ye have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39 but I say unto you, resist not him that is evil: but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40 And if any man would go to law with thee, and take away thy coat, let hi ...[text shortened]... as your heavenly Father is perfect.


What is your "obvious" interpretation?

Oh, this was harder than I thought. This language isn't precisely what I learnt in school. The good thing about my 'Bibel 2000' is that it has a modern language, easily understandable for anyone.

I stnad back, not doing any attempt, my English knowledge is not good enough to explain the finer details of it. I let others answer the question.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Imagine you do what Christ says to do and give up your coat to some schmuck who slaps you and you turn the other cheek, so he slaps you again. And on judgment day the same schmuck is in the kingdom becuase he is born again Christian... and you who tried to be perfect is left out. The OSAS gang sure are crazy.

The kingdom is a kingdom of love not a kingdom of judgement. To enter you leave your judgements behind and embrace love. If you try to be perfect then you should try to be perfect in love. Therefore , instead of being idignant that this "schmuck" is in heaven , you would be rejoicing for another saved soul. The love and compassion in your heart should leap for joy.

Instead what I hear from your comments is a hardness of heart , resentment and judgement. Such a heart cannot enter the kingdom until it softens. It is you who is crazy if you don't understand God's love. You think that Jesus wants you to give up your coat so that you can "earn" your place in heaven? Madness! You give up your coat out of love. It's the love in your heart that he's interested in.

That's why we stress faith and grace because they are acts of God's love towards us. God gives us the gift of faith and salvation out of the love in his heart. Those who stress grace seem to understand God's love better than those who stress "righteousness". But a righteousness without love and compassion is no righteousness at all.......

Originally posted by knightmeister
The kingdom is a kingdom of love not a kingdom of judgement. To enter you leave your judgements behind and embrace love. If you try to be perfect then you should try to be perfect in love. Therefore , instead of being idignant that this "schmuck" is in heaven , you would be rejoicing for another saved soul. The love and compassion in your heart should ...[text shortened]... . But a righteousness without love and compassion is no righteousness at all.......

Then why didn't Jesus just say "Have love in your heart and you're complete?" Instead, he insists that you actually do things to prove this love. How inconvenient for your theology! Since your SuperDuper God knows everything in every Man's heart, doing anything should be unnecessary. But Jesus doesn't seem to agree with your interpretation.

Originally posted by knightmeister
The kingdom is a kingdom of love not a kingdom of judgement. To enter you leave your judgements behind and embrace love. If you try to be perfect then you should try to be perfect in love. Therefore , instead of being idignant that this "schmuck" is in heaven , you would be rejoicing for another saved soul. The love and compassion in your heart should ...[text shortened]... . But a righteousness without love and compassion is no righteousness at all.......

biggest load of tosh i ever heard, here is the verse in its context and deviod of emotional claptrap and archaic language, and i quote,

Mathew 5:43 'you heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy. However, I say to you continue to love your enemies and to pray for those persecuting you that you may prove yourselves sons of your father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? and if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? you must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect '

Jesus was not saying that one could be perfect in the absolute sense, this could never be the case because after all, the Bible teaches that, 'all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 'does it not? Romans 3:23, What then did Jesus mean? In this instance as has already been mentioned the word 'perfect', carries the idea of being complete - Matthew 19:21, when Jesus said that we must be perfect, he was discussing love and encouraging his followers to be more complete in their love. How? By expanding their love to include even their enemies, is it not so ? the Bible writer Luke records Jesus as saying, ' continue becoming merciful, just as your father is merciful,' Luke 6:36.

and just as a side point, that the Kingdom is not a kingdom of judgment is tosh, those who say so better have references, because there are plenty of verses to the contrary!

Originally posted by kirksey957
The correct Greek interpretation is not "perfect" but rather mature or complete.

This is the most accurate definition. And it implies that a Christian is expected to continue to grow in virtue and not stay in his former condition.

Originally posted by kirksey957
The correct Greek interpretation is not "perfect" but rather mature or complete.

Thank you, Kirksey. Imperfection does not require the presence of flaws, nor does perfection
necessitate the absence of them.

Perfection means wholeness or completeness. And what Jesus means is, that through the
spiritual nourishment of acting in a loving fashion towards friend an enemy alike, one is made
whole (perfect).

Nemesio

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
So I do. Please forgive me and allow me to revise my response.

PinkFloyd rejects this imperative. I pointed out ways in which he willingly deviates from giving the same moral consideration to the welfare of animals that Jesus would, his excuse being simple: he's not Jesus -- he's not perfect.


Also, remind if you will, was it you or he who sa ...[text shortened]... he was a toddler? This reminder will help me to better direct my scorn in future discussions.

Toddler? Doesn't exactly leave much room for growth or depth of understanding. Wasn't me.

Originally posted by kirksey957
The correct Greek interpretation is not "perfect" but rather mature or complete.

For you the question then becomes, "What does Jesus mean by 'complete'"?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
biggest load of tosh i ever heard, here is the verse in its context and deviod of emotional claptrap and archaic language, and i quote,

Mathew 5:43 'you heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy. However, I say to you continue to love your enemies and to pray for those persecuting you that you may prove yourse e who say so better have references, because there are plenty of verses to the contrary!

"Jesus was not saying that one could be perfect in the absolute sense, this could never be the case because after all, the Bible teaches that, 'all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 'does it not? Romans 3:23"

What do you believe Jesus meant when He said, "as your heavenly Father is perfect". Do you not believe God "perfect" / "complete" in the "absolute sense"?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Also, remind if you will, was it you or he who said that his belief system has remained unchanged since he was a toddler? This reminder will help me to better direct my scorn in future discussions.

It was PinkFloyd also, and he said the age of four.

Nemesio

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
For you the question then becomes, "What does Jesus mean by 'complete'"?

That your entire being be a vessel for the expression of agape.

Nemesio

The Father's life and nature is the source of the sons' perfection.

If they are born of God eventually that life will swallow them up, sanctify them, transform them, deify them and render them perfected.

The source of the perfection is not the self effort of humans. It is in allowing, through cooperation, the divine life and nature of the Father to spread within their beings to the uttermost.

Originally posted by Nemesio
That your entire being be a vessel for the expression of agape.

Nemesio

That is right.

Your entire being in Christ in through His salvation, becomes a vessel to express the God of love.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"Jesus was not saying that one could be perfect in the absolute sense, this could never be the case because after all, the Bible teaches that, 'all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 'does it not? Romans 3:23"

What do you believe Jesus meant when He said, "as your heavenly Father is perfect". Do you not believe God "perfect" / "complete" in the "absolute sense"?[/b]

i have already answered, with scriptural references what Christ meant, i hope i will not need to remind you of those references, because Christ was clearly referring to his followers as trying to be more complete in their love by embracing even their enemies as the context shows,to imply this does not require effort on the part of individuals is incredulous, furthermore this is something quite distinct from whether God himself is complete/perfect in the absolute sense.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Then why didn't Jesus just say "Have love in your heart and you're complete?" Instead, he insists that you actually do things to prove this love. How inconvenient for your theology! Since your SuperDuper God knows everything in every Man's heart, doing anything should be unnecessary. But Jesus doesn't seem to agree with your interpretation.

If you have love in your heart it will spill out into your life and actions , if you have hate then the same. One does not "do" acts of love in order to "prove" something to anyone , one just does them because it's part of your being.

I really don't know what you are so steamed up about here.