Jesus' Teaching After Resurrection

Post resurrection teaching - Jesus warns the quite busy church, quite discerning church, and quite faithful church that He notices that they have left their first love.

He instructs them to repent and come back to the first works. These must be works which issue out of the first love. We will see what I think these are in a minute.

"But I have one thing against you, that you have left your first love.

Remember therefore where you have fallen from and repent and do the first works; ... " (Rev. 2:4,5a)

When Peter denied Jesus three times, Jesus latter restored him. Jesus asked him three times if he loved Him. Each time he told Peter to either feed His sheep or feed His lambs or shepherd His sheep.

The call for Peter back to his pure love for Jesus was accompanied by the Lord laying on Peter what was of the utmost concern to the Lord Jesus. He wants His sheep to be FED. He wants His followers to be nourished. He wants His disciples to be shepherded and supplied spiritual food.

Jesus said in essence - "If you really love Me, you must feed My sheep." If you really love Me you must see to the spiritual hunger and guidance of My sheep.

I think that "the first love" then must be for the lovers of Jesus to feed the fellow members of the church and the seeking people with the FOOD of Jesus Christ. He is food indeed for our hungry inner man.

Post resurrection - Jesus exhorts us not to fall from the first love. And Jesus exhorts us to do the first works of feeding the fellow believers with Christ and feeding those seeking to be His followers too, with the living Christ.

This is more than to TEACH the sheep. This is to dispense the Christ to people that you yourself have lived.

Post resurrection - Jesus wants the disciples not to depart from their first love.

Now many of us did not love the Lord Jesus at first. Many of the Christians did not love Jesus a lot when they first got saved. Mostly they wanted the HELP of Jesus with this or that personal problem.

So you may wonder what is the first love then. The first love of Jesus is the love of Jesus that puts Jesus Number one. The first love of Jesus places Jesus above all things and all matters. The first love of Jesus puts Jesus as the first place in everything.

What is first? What is the first consideration? What is of the most importance in each and every matter of our lives? It should be the Lord Jesus. The first love puts Jesus in His place, His rightful place as THE First.

Post resurrection and in exaltation - Jesus teaches us to make Him FIRST, love him FIRST, allow Him preeminence.

The Father cannot be made more happy than by those who make Jesus first and give Jesus the preeminent first place in everything. The Holy Spirit cannot be made more happy than by those who put Jesus as the FIRST and preeminent One in each and everything.

"But I have one thing against you, that you have left your first love.

Remember therefore where you have fallen from and repent and do the first works; but if not, I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place, unless you repent."

The discipline for leaving the first love is to lose the testimony, the shinning out of the Christian testimony before the world. This should be a concern to Christians, that they become dim and the light of testimony grows dim.

To keep it bright we believers must have Christ as the first love. We must allow Christ to be the top most Person in all things. And we must feed the fellow believers with the Christ that we live.

Originally posted by sonship

That is a rather strange way of looking at it.
No one is saying Jesus is any of these.
Jesus has been given all authority by God.
God does not need anyone to give Him authority since He is God.

That is no reason to believe that small letter "god" should be read in [b]Hebrews 1:8.

God can express Himself as perfect authority. ...[text shortened]... [/b] [/quote]

The revelation is not going to go away though you want to ignore this passage.[/b]

That is not a good example of the Three-oneness of God.
No it is not. Joseph is a good example of One God and One Lord, not three.

Originally posted by sonship
Now we can have a serious conversation or we can resort to time wasting frivolous gimmicks. Does it advance anything for you to brag about how "amused" you are ?

It doesn't advance things when you ignore my posts and follow up with your trademark huge preachy monologues either.

Besides it does amuse me to see two trinitarians arguing over the three alphas and three omegas. There is only ONE.

"Hear oh Israel (that's you by the way), the Lord you God is ONE."

Not three. 😀

Originally posted by divegeester
It doesn't advance things when you ignore my posts and follow up with your trademark huge preachy monologues either.

Besides it does amuse me to see two trinitarians arguing over the three alphas and three omegas. There is only ONE.

"Hear oh Israel (that's you by the way), the Lord you God is [b]ONE."

Not three. 😀[/b]

It doesn't advance things when you ignore my posts and follow up with your trademark huge preachy monologues either.

Oh what does the true seeker care about "preachy monologues" as long as he is brought to the truth.

Now, limitation of time is a reality. If there is some burning matter that you as so sure I am shrinking from addressing, just remind me in a clear way.

I will respond to it. Come now. You know that each and every sentence poster does not ALwAYS have time to discuss (?).

I think I have quite a few points not responded to yet.
I presuppose people's time allows for so much writing here.

so what's your devastating biggy that you imagine I am cowering from ??

Originally posted by sonship

Would you rather it said "I am the Father and I will come make my abode with you"?

I don't "rather" it say anything but what it says. I say "Amen" to whatever it says.

It is always best to just [b]"Amen!" the word of God for whatever it says.
So I have no problem with the Father and the Son coming as the divine "We" of t ...[text shortened]... also can believe that Jehovah of host is both the Sender and the One Sent in Zechariah 2.[/b]

I don't "rather" it say anything but what it says. I say "Amen" to whatever it says.

That's the whole point! It doesn't say anything about a "divine trinity"! It says God and Jesus, no Trinity. Amen to what it says, remember?
So you don't think the record of Joseph and all the parallels about him being given all authority and bowing the knee, and Pharaoh saying on the throne alone I am Pharaoh is a good example? Really?
You know, I think you really do love the Lord Jesus.
I think you are born again.
But I don't think you are being honest with yourself. I think you are afraid of being wrong.
You have been so indoctrinated with Trinitarian teaching, that you don't take a step back and really look at what the bible says.
Instead you jump through hoops trying to refute the One God and One Lord.
Even though Trinitarians have to invent words like Trinity, god man, incarnate, triune God, divine Trinity and the like....they can't be found anywhere in scripture.

I have seen both sides. I used to believe that you could pray to Mary, and different saints, and that Mary was God's mother!
But I have come a long way since 50 years ago when I used to attend Religious Ed after school. God woke me up to the truth.
I have learned from God and Jesus opening up their word to me. I have learned that God is kind, loving and Just.
I have learned that God does not torture people for all eternity, that He is not the one who murders people and comes to give you cancer.
I have learned the truth that He is not some three headed god.
I have learned that God is not a man that He should lie. But Jesus was a man.
I have learned that God cannot be tempted with evil, but Jesus was, because he was a man.(If Satan thought Jesus was God, he would not have bothered to tempt him)
I have learned that God created a seed in a Virgin to bring about the 2nd Adam to redeem mankind. He was like the first Adam, but the first Adam failed, where the 2nd Adam succeeded.
I have learned that Yahweh is God and no one needs to give him authority because He already has it. Jesus was "given" all authority by His Father God.
God does not have a "God". Jesus does.. (The bible refers to Him as "The God and Father of Jesus Christ". )
The great creed of Israel was "Here, O
Israel, the LORD [Yahweh] our God is one." (Deuteronomy 6:4).
The Bible also states, "To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD
[Yahweh] Himself is God; there is none other beside Him." (Deuteronomy 4:35) and "I am the
LORD [Yahweh], and there is no other; There is no God besides Me." (Isaiah 45:5). Yahweh, is
the personal name of God and Yahweh is only one person.
Jesus Christ reiterated this old covenant creed. He said, "The first of all the commandments is:
'Hear, O Israel, the LORD [Yahweh] our God is one." (Mark 12:29)
When Jesus asked Peter who he believed Jesus was, "Simon Peter answered and said, 'You are
the Christ, the Son of the living God.'” (Matthew 16:16). And Jesus did not reprove Peter saying
"No, you've got it wrong. I'm God the Son." No, he said, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for
flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." (Matthew
16:17).

In Edward Gibbons, from the preface to History of Christianity you will find this..

“If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The
pure deism [belief in one person who is God] of the first Christians . . . was changed by the church of Rome, into
the incomprehensible dogma of the Trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by Egyptians and idealized by
Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief.”

The Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles Paul, Peter and John identify the
Father as the only true God.
“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You
have sent.”
John 17:3
“Jesus said to her, ‘Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My
brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and
your God.” John 20:17
“yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord
Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. However, there is not in
everyone that knowledge.” The apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 8:6, 7

I have also come to understand, even though it was there right under my nose in Romans 10:9 that God raised Christ from the dead, he did not raise himself.

I have also come to believe that God cannot die, Jesus did.

You asked me why is it David called Jesus Lord?
“While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 saying, “What do you think
about the Christ? Whose Son is He?” They said to Him, “The Son of David.” 43 He said to them,
“How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying: 44
‘ The LORD said to my Lord,
“ Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”’?
45
If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?” 46 And no one was able to answer Him a
word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore.”
Matthew 22:41-45:
The second time is in Acts 2:32-36, quoted by Peter.
“This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the
right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He
poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens,
but he says himself:
‘ The LORD said to my Lord, Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”’
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom
you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
In the first instance, Jesus quotes the Psalm while questioning the Pharisees on how the Christ
could be both David’s son and his Lord. In the second instance, Peter quotes the Psalm to show
how God had promised to make Jesus both Lord and Christ. So, what does Psalm 110:1, state
and what does it mean about who Jesus is? Here’s the verse,
“The LORD said to my Lord, ‘Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.’”
The first word translated “LORD” with all capital letters is the Hebrew word “Adonai” This word
“LORD” is usually a translation of the Hebrew “Yahweh” which is God’s personal name. But in
some manuscripts “Adonai”, a title, was substituted for “Yahweh” from fear of using God’s
name in vain. And “Adonai” is only ever used for the one true God in the Old Testament (about 450 times).
The second word translated “Lord” (with a capital “L” and then all small letters) is the Hebrew
word “Adoni”. Notice the difference? “Adonai” ends in “ai” and “Adoni” ends in “I”. The title
“Adoni” is used only for human beings who are superior to other human beings and never of God/Yahweh (for example Gen. 44:7, Num. 32:25, 2 Kings 2:19). “The form ADONI (‘my lord), a royal title (1 Sam. 29:8), is to be carefully distinguished from the title ADONAI (‘my LORD) used of Yahweh.” (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, “Lord,” p. 157).
The answer to Christ’s question to the Pharisees is that Jesus Christ is King David’s superior because God has made him both “Lord and Christ.” This is what Peter said. But Jesus Christ is not God. “Adonai” is God. He is the Father of “Adoni” the son of David, the Man, the Lord Jesus
Christ.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

That's the whole point! It doesn't say anything about a "divine trinity"! It says God and Jesus, no Trinity. Amen to what it says, remember?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amen to the usage of the pronoun "We".
And the "We" explained as the Father and Jesus.

" ... and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (See John 14:23)

That "We" consists of the Father and the Son.
What about the Holy Spirit ?

The Holy Spirit is the way the Father and the Son will REACH man to impart the Divine "We" into man.

" But when He, the Spirit of reality comes, He will guide you into all the reality; for He will not speak from Himself, but what He hears He will speak; and He will declare to you the things that are coming.

He will glorify Me, for He will receive of Mine and will declare it to you.
All that the Father has is Mine; for this reason I have said that He receives of Mine and will declare it to you." (John 16:13-15)

So the Divine "We" is imparted to the saved by means of the Spirit of reality. The whole Triune God fulfills His plan to dispense God into man.

The fact that the word "trinity" is not mentioned per se in any verse is not as terribly significant as you wish it was.


So you don't think the record of Joseph and all the parallels about him being given all authority and bowing the knee, and Pharaoh saying on the throne alone I am Pharaoh is a good example? Really?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The question is - Of What is it a good example?
It is not a good example to deny that God was manifest in the flesh.
And that is what I am speaking to.

Pharoah, king of the Egypt, is hardly a symbol of God the Father.
In the story of Joseph it would be Jacob the father of Joseph as a far more suitable symbol of the Father, if you wanted to use that story to peer into the nature of God's being.

I may revisit your example latter to be fair to the labor you put on it.


You know, I think you really do love the Lord Jesus.
I think you are born again.
-----------------------------------------------------------

I am, praise God. And the Father and Son and Holy Spirit dwell in me.
And I fully understand why the term trinity is appropriate to the experience of God's mysterious nature.

For the Trinity is not for objective admiration as a doctrine. The Trinity is for the experience and enjoyment of God.


But I don't think you are being honest with yourself. I think you are afraid of being wrong.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am more concerned with missing the subjective enjoyment and experience of God.
What use is being right is you are "dead right" ?

Notice again, the three of the Triune God has His purpose of declaring to the believers all the riches of the Father which are given to the Son and conveyed to the born again -

"All that the Father has is Mine; for this reason I have said that He [the Spirit] receives of Mine and will declare it to you."(John 16:15)

Maybe you are railing against the Trinity as an objective and perplexing dogma. I am interested in the Trinity because in this way the Father, through the Son, by the Holy Spirit dispenses God into man.


You have been so indoctrinated with Trinitarian teaching, that you don't take a step back and really look at what the bible says.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe that the Father is in the believers -

"One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all" (Eph. 4:6)

That is the Father - God is in all the members of the Body of Christ.

I believe that the Son is in the born again -

" Test yourselves hether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved? (2 Cor. 13:5)

Praise the Lord! The Father is in me and the Son is in me. And no wonder for He said -

"We will come to him and make an abode with him." (See John 14:23) [quote]

That's two down and one to go.
The Holy Spirit is in me too of course:

[quote] " Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own ? (1 Cor. 6:19)

The Father and the Son are within me as the Divine 'We" (John 14:23) .
And the Holy Spirit dwells in me.
But I certainly cannot detect ANY DIFFERENCE. I know that God is in me.

So, the ancient faithful brothers were right on to arrive at a phase - "Trinity" to ward off the enemies of the Christian faith and experience. And we shouldn't be so proud that we have no use for such a useful term.

No, the ancient brothers were not perfect. And yes, they made some errors.
But you're all hung up on avoiding the word Trinity. That is not my hangup.

Cont. latter.

Instead you jump through hoops trying to refute the One God and One Lord.
Even though Trinitarians have to invent words like Trinity,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not jumping through hoops. I am being dispensed into by the Triune God and built up into the Body of Christ for His eternal purpose.

Let me save you a little time. Don't bother trying to get me to be ashamed in some way for using the wonderful term TRIUNE GOD.



god man, incarnate, triune God, divine Trinity and the like....they can't be found anywhere in scripture.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sure these truths can be seen in Scripture.


I have seen both sides. I used to believe that you could pray to Mary, and different saints, and that Mary was God's mother!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guilt by association will not work.
If you want to argue about worship of "Mary the Mother of God" you'll have to find someone else to defend that worship.

You're discussing the worship of the Triune God by me.
Don't try to slip in some other matter of idolatry in an attempt to lump the revelation of the three-oneness of God with some heretical practice or teaching.


But I have come a long way since 50 years ago when I used to attend Religious Ed after school. God woke me up to the truth.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You've seen it ALL boy ! "Been there, done that, seen it ALL !"

That's nice. The revelation of the Triune God remains in the Holy Bible.

Maybe you got indoctrinated to place on a pedestal an objective teaching called "The Trinity". And you noticed your shortage of the enjoyment of life. So you thought to knock down from the pedestal the objective dogma of Trinity.

That's your world. I was taught that the Father - Son - Holy Spirit are for out enjoyment of experience. I learn this from enjoyers and from SCripture itself.

" The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." ( 2 Cor. 13:14)

You see, these passages are about experience and enjoyment of God as life.
So I have no problem with the Trinity in this regard. The Trinity is about the grace being experiential, the love being experiential and the fellowship being experiential.


I have learned from God and Jesus opening up their word to me. I have learned that God is kind, loving and Just. I have learned that God does not torture people for all eternity, that He is not the one who murders people and comes to give you cancer.
I have learned the truth that He is not some three headed god.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Very interesting. You are again moving from the subject of God's triune being to the matter of eternal damnation.

I think I will let the bait pass and stay a bit more with the matter of the experience of the Triune God.


I have learned that God is not a man that He should lie. But Jesus was a man.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

" God is not a man that He should lie." says Numbers 23:19 BEFORE the incarnation. But if God BECOME a man, He ALSO cannot lie.

And here we see that God will become a man, and a NOT LYING ONE at that:

" For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us.
And the government is upon His shoulder;

And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6)

Do you know why He is called Wonderful ? It is because He is thoroughly wonderful. Anything that is wonderful is full of wonder - not easy to understand.
He is throughout Wonderful.

And of course He is God incarnate so He is called "Mighty God".
Jehovah is the Mighty God. The same book of Isaiah says so in the next chapter.

" A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God ... For utter destruction and a strict decision is the Lord Jehovah of hosts performing in the midst of the whole land." (See Isaiah 10:21,23)

Jehovah God is the Mighty God. And in the prophecy the child BORN of a human mother is called "Mighty God" .

He is also called "Eternal Father" because as God incarnate He is the Eternal Father come in the flesh as the born child and the given Son.

"Is anything TOO WONDERFUL [or hard] for Jehovah" God ? (Gen. 18:14).

Can a born child be the Mighty God the Creator of the universe and holding it together?
Can a given Son be the Eternal Father?

Is anything too hard for Jehovah?
Is anything too wonderful for the Lord?



I have learned that God cannot be tempted with evil, but Jesus was, because he was a man.(If Satan thought Jesus was God, he would not have bothered to tempt him)
I have learned that God created a seed in a Virgin to bring about the 2nd Adam to redeem mankind. He was like the first Adam, but the first Adam failed, where the 2nd Adam succeeded.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By saying "the 2nd Adam" I think you mean "the last Adam". Or perhaps you mean "the second man".

I am glad you mentioned the second man. For the Bible says the second man is out of heaven. And the last Adam became a life giving Spirit to impart God as life into His saved people. This too confirms the Trinity.

" The first man is out of the earth, earthy; the second man is out of heaven." ( 1 Cor. 15:47 )

"... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

Christ, the Mighty God out of heaven, and the incarnation of the Eternal Father, dispenses God into man by means of the divine life giving Spirit. That Spirit is the God-man Jesus in another form.

He came that we may have divine life and have it abundantly (John 10:10) And He dispenses this life into man by means of Himself being a life giving Spirit - " ... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 cor .15:45)

If you stand on this things and affirm these things, your experience of God will take off.
"Christ is God Who lives in me!"

As man as received Him to them He gave authority to become children of God ... BORN of God.

In Edward Gibbons, from the preface to History of Christianity you will find this..

“If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure deism [belief in one person who is God] of the first Christians . . . was changed by the church of Rome, into
the incomprehensible dogma of the Trinity.

Jesus prophesied that the kingdom of the heavens will be as fine meal that was mixed with corrupting leaven until the whole became leavened. We know of the leavening of the Christian church by Constantine and the Roman Catholic Church.

You cannot blame the Father is God - Son is God - Holy Spirit is God on the RCC or the Roman Emporer. The three-one God is in the Holy Bible.


However such things as Christmas, Easter, Mary worship, Mother and Child portraits, and many other Babylonian things, were the leavened added to the fine meal of the Gospel.

The Triune God was not a pagan matter added. And any statue of a three-headed deity is just a sensational "guilt by association" move to attack the revelation of the Father - Son - Spirit.


Many of the pagan tenets, invented by Egyptians and idealized by
Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief.”
----------------------------------------------------------------

It is quite true as Jesus predicted that the whole gospel of the kingdom would be leavened by the evil woman who mixed corrupting leaven with the fine flour of Christ's teaching.

" Another parable He spoke to them: The kingdom of the heavens is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three meausures of meal until the whole was leavened." (Matt. 13:33)

From The Life Study of Matthew by Witness Lee, LSM,
My bolding

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

IV. THE INWARD CORRUPTION
OF THE OUTWARD APPEARANCE OF THE KINGDOM

A. The Parable of Leaven

With the appearance of the kingdom, there are three items: the changed nature, the tares; the changed outward appearance, the façade, the big tree; and the inward rottenness and corruption, the leaven. This brings us to the parable of the leaven.

1. The Kingdom of the Heavens Being like Leaven

Verse 33 says, “Another parable He spoke to them: The kingdom of the heavens is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal until the whole was leavened.” Leaven in the Scriptures signifies evil things (1 Cor. 5:6, 8) and evil doctrines (Matt. 16:6, 11-12).

2. A Woman (the Apostate Catholic Church) Having Taken the Leaven and Hidden It
in Three Measures of Meal

Verse 33 says that a woman took leaven and hid it in three measures of meal. The church, as the practical kingdom of the heavens, with Christ—the unleavened fine flour—as its content, must be the unleavened bread (1 Cor. 5:7-8). However, the Catholic Church, which was fully and officially formed in the sixth century and which is signified by the woman here, took many pagan practices, heretical doctrines, and evil matters and mixed them with the teachings concerning Christ to leaven the whole content of Christianity. This fourth parable corresponds to the fourth of the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3, the church in Thyatira (2:18-29). This became the inward content of the outward appearance of the kingdom of the heavens.

Meal, for making the meal offering (Lev. 2:1), signifies Christ as food to both God and man. Three measures is the quantity needed to make a full meal (Gen. 18:6). Hence, to hide the leaven in three measures of meal signifies that the Catholic Church has fully leavened in a hidden way all the teachings concerning Christ. This is the actual situation in the Roman Catholic Church. This is absolutely against the Scripture, which strongly forbids putting any leaven into the meal offering (Lev. 2:4-5, 11).

The parable of the leaven reveals the matter of mixture. The three measures of meal refer to fine flour made of wheat grain. This fine flour was always used in the meal offering, the food for God’s priests. Those who served God as priests fed on the fine flour of the meal offering. The meal offering was not only for the satisfaction of God’s priests, but also for the satisfaction of God Himself. Thus, the meal offering was food both for the priests and for God. The meal offering is a full type of Christ in His humanity, with the fine flour signifying Christ. When the Lord appeared to Abraham, Abraham told Sarah, his wife, to prepare a full meal with three measures of fine flour. Hence, in the Bible, three measures denotes a full meal. The fact that three measures of meal have been leavened by the woman indicates that everything related to Christ has been leavened by this evil woman.

The woman of Matthew 13 is the Jezebel of Revelation 2. According to history, Thyatira signifies the apostate Roman Church. The apostate Roman Church is the woman of Matthew 13 and the Jezebel of Revelation 2. Eventually this evil woman will become the great prostitute, called Babylon the Great, seen in Revelation 17. Thus, the woman in Matthew 13, Revelation 2, and Revelation 17 is the apostate Catholic Church. After the papal system had been established, the many pagan practices which had been brought in were confirmed by that system. This is documented in Alexander Hislop’s book, The Two Babylons .

Maybe you got indoctrinated to place on a pedestal an objective teaching called "The Trinity". And you noticed your shortage of the enjoyment of life. So you thought to knock down from the pedestal the objective dogma of Trinity.

I have plenty of joy in the Lord, thank you. I did not get put on any pedestal. I am only exalted when I humble myself to Him. My contention with the Trinity is I do not believe it exists and I believe it robs God (Yahweh) of His rightful place as the only true God who is one.
It also dishonors the Lord Jesus by making him to be something he is not.
Jesus did not exist before he was born.
Here is what the angel Gabriel said to Joseph about Jesus Christ:
“Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph,
before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her
husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put
her away secretly.
“20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a
dream, saying, ‘Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that
which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call
His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.’
“22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the
prophet, saying: 23 ‘Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His
name Immanuel,’ which is translated, ‘God with us.’” (Matthew 1:18-22)

The word translated “conceived” in verse 20, is the Greek word “gennao” which means to
beget. Conception and begetting mark the point in time in which a person begins to exist. In fact the beginning of Matthew states, “The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham” (Matthew 1:1). The word translated “geneology” is “genesis” in Greek!
Matthew, chapter 1, tells us how Jesus Christ came into existence.
Just as the heavens and the earth came into existence by the creative power of God (recorded in the book of Genesis), and did not exist before its creation, so Jesus came into existence, for the first time, by the creative power of God in Mary’s womb.
Jesus did not pre-exist in heaven as God and then decide to reduce himself and then pass through time and space and enter Mary’s womb as a baby.
An entity like this is not “conceived” or “begotten” he merely passes through one form of life into another (kind of like a sci-fi character). Again, let’s listen to Gabriel, this time speaking to Mary.
“Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,
27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s
name was Mary. 28 And having come in, the angel said to her, ‘Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!’
“29 But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found
favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall
call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob
forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.’
“34 Then Mary said to the angel, ‘How can this be, since I do not know a man?’
35 And the angel answered and said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power
of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be
called the Son of God.’” (Luke 1:26-35)

Jesus is conceived and begotten and comes into existence in Mary’s womb by a
miracle of God’s power. Jesus is not an ‘eternally begotten” (whatever that means!) Son of God,
who passes from one form of life into another. Gabriel states in verse 35, “therefore dio kai – i.e. “for this reason”, because of God’s creative act within Mary’s womb …that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God” (by the way, the NIV Bible waters down the Greek considerably!).
Roman Catholic scholar, Raymond Brown, commenting on the “therefore” in Luke 1:35, states,
“of the nine times dio kai occurs in the New Testament…it involves a certain causality…this has
embarrassed many orthodox theologians since in preexistence Christology a conception by the
holy spirit in Mary’s womb does not bring about the existence of God’s Son. Luke is seemingly
unaware of such a [preexistent] Christology; conception is causally related to divine Sonship for
him.” (The Birth of the Messiah, 1977)

In other words, for Luke and Gabriel, God’s creative act in Mary’s womb begets (brings into
existence) Jesus as God’s Son. There is no hint of any suggestion at all that there was an
incarnation where a pre-existing spirit being transformed himself and became a human baby.
Jesus is a true man and came into existence by the creative power of God just as Adam did
(Luke 1:23, 38). There is only one true God and He is the Father of Jesus Christ.

I have so much more that shows the errors of the Trinity, but I regress.
Do you know why? For a couple of reasons....
1. I don't think you would change your mind no matter what I show you.
Someone once said they would not let the bible stand in the way of what they believe.
I have found this to be true in many cases.
2. I have noticed that there are Trinitarians, Unitarians, Baptist, Lutherans, etc.
And you know what I found? God works with all kinds of people! He loves them and blesses them right where they are. It is not as important to Him about doctrine (which is important too) as it is about faith and relationship.
I am finding God is more interested in people being humble, loving Him and continue to fellowship with Him and fellow believers.
But this has been an interesting discussion for me and I hope others, but I am in the process of packing and moving. I don't have as much time as I would like and my internet will be disrupted soon.
So for now I will only post for a few minutes when I can for the next couple weeks, and make my chess moves when I can.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

I have plenty of joy in the Lord, thank you. I did not get put on any pedestal. I am only exalted when I humble myself to Him. My contention with the Trinity is I do not believe it exists and I believe it robs God (Yahweh) of His rightful place as the only true God who is one.

I did not say that you got put on a pedestal. You misread me.
I said that maybe the doctrine of the Trinity you deemed was kind of objectively put on a pedestal,

Your post is long. If I reply it will be in sections.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

Commenting on Matthew 2:18-22 you say

The word translated “conceived” in verse 20, is the Greek word “gennao” which means to
beget. Conception and begetting mark the point in time in which a person begins to exist. In fact the beginning of Matthew states, “The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham” (Matthew 1:1). The word translated “geneology” is “genesis” in Greek!

The Eternal Father was incarnated. He is Emmanuel - God with us.

Matthew, chapter 1, tells us how Jesus Christ came into existence.
Just as the heavens and the earth came into existence by the creative power of God (recorded in the book of Genesis), and did not exist before its creation, so Jesus came into existence, for the first time, by the creative power of God in Mary’s womb.

That child that was born of Mary - Jesus was God who was of old even from days of everlasting -

" But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, So little to be among the thousands of Judah,

From you there will come forth to Me He who is to be Ruler in Israel;

And His goings forth are from ancient times, From days of eternity." (Micah 5:2)

The child called Jesus born of the virgin Mary was One whose goings forth did not commence from the days of His being physically conceived in Mary or born from her. RATHER ... His days of going forth were from ancient times, even from the days of eternity.

The uncreated God clothed Himself in the flesh of creation. He is the mingling of God and man. He is the mingling of the Uncreated and the Created - Emmanuel - "God with us".

The Logos that was with God and was God became flesh.

" In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being." (John 1:1-3)

That is because His goings forth are from ancient times, even from the days of eternity as the prophet Micah foretold some seven centuries before the birth of Jesus.

As long as God was, the Word was. And the Word incarnated as the man Jesus.

"And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality. (John 1:14)

This child is the incarnation of the Mighty God.
This Son is the incarnation of the Eternal Father.

Jesus did not pre-exist in heaven as God and then decide to reduce himself and then pass through time and space and enter Mary’s womb as a baby.

The Word was as long as God was. And the Word became flesh.
This One may not have been called the Man Jesus before that time.
However, this Person's goings forth were from ancient days before Mary existed, even from days of eternity.

So Jesus told the Pharisees -

" Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being I am." (John 8:58b)

Christ was the I AM before Abraham came into being. And His days of going forth were from eternity (Micah 5:2). So quite truly He is the Mighty God incarnated. And He is the incarnation as the "son ... given" Who is the Eternal Father.

God is triune.

An entity like this is not “conceived” or “begotten” he merely passes through one form of life into another (kind of like a sci-fi character). Again, let’s listen to Gabriel, this time speaking to Mary.

The uncreated clothed Himself in His own creation. Man is no doubt an item of God's creation Genesis 1:26,27). So the man Jesus is definitely an item of creation. Yet He is also the Word who was God and through whom all of creation came into being.

" All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being." (John 1:3)

So the uncreated God who inhabits eternity clothed Himself in His own creation and became the man Jesus.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
[b]That is not a good example of the Three-oneness of God.
No it is not. Joseph is a good example of One God and One Lord, not three.[/b]

I never spoke of three Gods and I never spoke of three Lords.

That is Tritheism.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

Jesus is conceived and begotten and comes into existence in Mary’s womb by a
miracle of God’s power. Jesus is not an ‘eternally begotten” (whatever that means!) Son of God,
who passes from one form of life into another. Gabriel states in verse 35, “therefore dio kai – i.e. “for this reason”, because of God’s creative act within Mary’s womb …that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God” (by the way, the NIV Bible waters down the Greek considerably!).
Roman Catholic scholar, Raymond Brown, commenting on the “therefore” in Luke 1:35, states,

Since MAN is an item of creation, as "God CREATED man" (Genesis 1:27) the man Jesus is an item of the creation of God.

But on the other hand the man Jesus is the Logos, the Word Who was with God and was God, and through whom all creation was made.

So in the incarnation of Jesus we have the mingling of God and man.
The uncreated and the created united in a Person.

I told before that in Zechariah 2 we see that God is both the sent one and the sender. So we are given a heads up to the wonderful triune nature of God.

" For thus says Jehovah of hosts, After the glory He has sent Me against the nations ..." (Zech. 1:8a)

The Speaker is Jehovah of hosts.
The Speaker who is sent against the nations is also Jehovah of hosts.

God sends God.

"For I [Jehovah of hosts] am now waving My hand over them ... and they will be plunder for those who served them; and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me." (v.9)

Jehovah of hosts is the one waving His hand over them. And when He does they shall know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Him.

God sends God.
God is the one sent as well as the sending one.

God who is waving His hand is sent by God.

" .. for now I am coming, and I will dwell in your midst, declares Jehovah." (v.10b)

God declares that He will dwell in their midst.
And when He does they will know that God has sent Him.

" ... I will dwell in your midst, declares Jehovah.

And many nations will join themselves to Jehovah in that day and will become My people.; and I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me to you." (v.10c,11)

God is the dweller in the midst.
Many nations will join themselves to God. They shall become His people.
And they will know that God has sent God to dwell in the midst and secure for Himself many peoples.

God sends God.
God is both the One Sent and the Sender.

in the New Testament God is incarnated as the Son of Man.
God the Father is the sending One and God the Son is the One sent.

And the Third of the Divine Trinity, the Holy Spirit dispenses the "We" of the Father and the Son into the lovers of Jesus (John 14:23, 16-18) .

Originally posted by sonship

It doesn't advance things when you ignore my posts and follow up with your trademark huge preachy monologues either.

Oh what does the true seeker care about "preachy monologues" as long as he is brought to the truth.

Now, limitation of time is a reality. If there is some burning matter that you as so sure I am shrinking from addressin ...[text shortened]... o much writing here.

so what's your devastating biggy that you imagine I am cowering from ??

You are either pretending you have not read my posts in this thread or don't understand them. Either way it is rank dishonesty on your part.