Jesus' Teaching After Resurrection

Originally posted by checkbaiter
My contention with the Trinity is I do not believe it exists and I believe it robs God (Yahweh) of His rightful place as the only true God who is one.

Well said.

Originally posted by sonship
I never spoke of three Gods and I never spoke of three Lords.

That is [b]Tritheism.[/b]

Who of your trinity is the "Alpha and the Omega"?

The first and the last...

Originally posted by divegeester

Who of your trinity is the "Alpha and the Omega"?

The first and the last...

The Sweet One - Jesus, the embodiment of the Triune God.

Now look at the Alpha and Omega passage as it first appears in Revelation.

" Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the land will mourn over Him, Yes amen.

I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, He who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty." (Rev. 7,8)

I don't want to just argue the doctrine of this passage. Don't you know that only through Jesus is the Almighty sweet and real and living in our hearts ?

Look, this passage is a direct reference to Zechariah 12 where it says that the tribes will mourn when they see God whom they have pierced. They will mourn for Him as mourning for an only son.

"And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of supplication; and they will look upon Me, whom they have pierced; and they will wail over Him with wailing as for an only son and cry bitterly over Him with bitter crying as for a firstborn son." (Zech. 12:10)

I use to think the mourning was from the people all over the world.
But the specific reference in both passages is to the mourning of the tribes of the Holy Land, or the tribes of Israelites in Jerusalem. For it is in the Holy Land that Jesus Christ will descend geographically.

The Jewish tribes of the Holy Land will realize that this One is the One whom they pierced in execution centuries before on Calvary. He is the Almighty. He is God become a man. He is the Son of God Whom they pierced. And they will mourn over Him as for a firstborn son.

God says that they will look upon Him [God] Whom they pierced and will mourn for Him (the Son of God).

" And in that day I [Jehovah God] (v.8) will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

... and they [the repenting Jews of the land] will look upon ME, whom they have pierced; and they will wail over Him with wailing as for an only son ..."

So in Revelation 1:7,8 is the Almighty as Jesus Christ, the One pierced and crucified who is coming on the clouds.

"Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, EVEN THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM; (See Zech. 12:10) ... and all the tribes of the land [the Holy Land around Jerusalem] will mourn over Him, Yes, amen.

I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God,

He who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty." (Rev. 1:7,8)

And again in chapter 22 the Root and Offspring of David, Jesus, declares that He is coming and that He is the Alpha and the Omega.

"Behold I come quickly, and My reward is with Me to render to each one as his work is.

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End ... I Jesus have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright morning star." (See Rev. 22:13,16)

I TOLD you He is sweet. I told you !!

Zechariah 12:10

Zechariah 12:10 (NIV)
And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

First of all, there are problems with the transmission of the Hebrew text such that the original meaning is not clear. Thus there are versions such as the NIV above that make the sentence refer back to God and these versions usually supply the word “me” or some equivalent. On the other hand, there are other translators that see the “one whom they have pierced” as referring to someone other than God, and those versions usually supply the word “him.” An example of this is the Revised Standard Version.

Zechariah 12:10 (RSV)
And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born.

Translators and commentators who believe that the word “pierced” should refer back to the pronoun “him” cite textual variants that more clearly read “him,” as well as the flow of the sentence which continues with the word “him” in the phrase “they shall mourn for him” and “grieve bitterly for him.” The Jewish understanding of this verse has always been that the one pierced was one in an intimate relationship with God, but there is no record of any early Jewish commentator understanding Zechariah 12:10 to be saying that somehow Yahweh Himself would come into the flesh and be pierced in the literal sense of the word. It is apparent to us that the Revised Standard Version has a good translation of the verse and that Zechariah 12:10 is a prophecy of the piercing of the promised Messiah.

Another important point to make is that Zechariah 12:10 is quoted in John 19:37 after the Roman soldier thrust his spear into Christ’s side. John 19:37 reads: “and, as another scripture says, ‘They will look on the one they have pierced.” The King James Version translates John 19:37 as follows: “And again another scripture saith, ‘They shall look on him whom they pierced.’”

The different versions may disagree on the Hebrew text of Zechariah 12:10, but none of them disagree on the translation of the way it is quoted in the New Testament. None of the versions have the word “me,” and most of them supply the word “him” as does the KJV, NASB and RSV. If the original reading of Zechariah 12:10 was “me, whom they have pierced,” we can think of no reason that it would not be quoted that way in the New Testament. On the other hand, if the reading of Zechariah 12:10 in the RSV and other versions is correct, then it makes perfect sense that the verse would be quoted in the New Testament the way it is. We contend that the New Testament quotation of Zechariah 12:10 gives us the proper interpretation of the verse.

Not only is Zechariah 12:10 quoted in John, but also it is alluded to in Revelation. Revelation 1:7 says, “Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.” Commentators freely admit that this verse alludes back to Zechariah, and it uses the word “him,” not “me.” Thus we conclude that the internal evidence of Scripture is conclusive that the one pierced in Zechariah is not God but one in an intimate relation with God, the Messiah.

The third point I would make is that although we do not believe that “me” is properly supplied in many versions of Zechariah 12:10, it certainly is the case that God was “pierced” when the Messiah was tortured and put to death. When Simeon met Joseph and Mary in the Temple when they came to consecrate Jesus, he said to Mary, “A sword will pierce your own soul too” (Luke 2:35). Commentators freely admit that this statement is not referring to the physical piercing of Mary in any way, but rather is referring to the grief that Mary will endure as she watched her son be tortured and killed. Thus Scripture gives us evidence that, if Zechariah said, “they will look on [or “unto”] me who they have pierced,” then he was saying that God’s heart would be pierced. If “me” is the true reading in Zechariah 12:10, then the Bible tells us that both the hearts of God the Father of the Messiah and Mary the mother of the Messiah were pierced when Jesus their Son was tortured and killed.

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/zechariah-12-10

But hey, let's not let the bible get in the way of our beliefs.

Originally posted by sonship

Who of your trinity is the "Alpha and the Omega"?

The first and the last...

The Sweet One - Jesus, the embodiment of the Triune God.

Now look at the [b]Alpha and Omega passage as it first appears in Revelation.

" Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; a ...[text shortened]... bright morning star." (See Rev. 22:13,16)

I TOLD you He is sweet. I told you !![/b]

I don't see how any of this refutes my position.

So according to you, "The Father" is not the first and the last the Alpha and the Omega?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
[b]Zechariah 12:10

[quote]

Zechariah 12:10 (NIV)
And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

First of ...[text shortened]... an.com/verses/zechariah-12-10

But hey, let's not let the bible get in the way of our beliefs.[/b]

Are you still pretending you haven't read my previous posts in this thread on this topic?

Are you still pretending that you haven't see me post several times:

Hear oh Israel (that's you sonship), the Lord your God is ONE

This appears many times in the Bible.

Hear of Israel the Lord you God is three appears ZERO times.

You're the preacher, work it out.😉

Originally posted by divegeester




Hear oh Israel (that's you sonship), the Lord your God is ONE

This appears many times in the Bible.

Hear of Israel the Lord you God is three appears ZERO times.

You're the preacher, work it out.😉[/b]

Are you still pretending you haven't read my previous posts in this thread on this topic?

No. Next question ?

Are you still pretending that you haven't see me post several times:
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No.

Do you see me charging you with "pretending" to not have noticed something because I see no specific addressing of it yet ?

Do you consider all that I have pointed out to you YOU have given adequate rebuttal to? Far from it.
And I don't think you are able to.
I notice you have some matters I have not specifically taken up.

I don't expect to convince you. But I do write for others who are considering and reading along, AS I suppose you probably also do.

Originally posted by divegeester

Hear oh Israel (that's you sonship), the Lord your God is ONE

Okay. If this is your favorite point. Let me deal with it next (as I have time).
Maybe today. Maybe on Sunday when I return from a trip.

HOWEVER, I have ALREADY shown you that in Zechariah the God Who revealed Himself as one to Israel was simultaneously both the sent one and the sender.

Zechariah 2:8-11 shows this God Who is one is simultaneously the Sender and the One sent.

So your issue has not been ignored in that regard. But I will address the SHEMA in another manner.

Originally posted by divegeester

You're the preacher, work it out.

Oh, Wise guy huh?

Okay wise guy. Let me ask you one question for starters. Uh... does your Bible end with the book of Deuteronomy ?

Take a look. Mine goes quite a bit more into God's progressive revelation from Joshua all the way through the New Testament and ending in Revelation.

Is Deuteronomy the last book in your Bible there .... wise guy?

Originally posted by sonship

You're the preacher, work it out.

Oh, Wise guy huh?

Okay wise guy. Let me ask you one question for starters. Uh... does your Bible end with the book of [b]Deuteronomy ?

Take a look. Mine goes quite a bit more into God's progressive revelation from Joshua all the way through the New Testament and ending in Revelation.

Is Deuteronomy the last book in your Bible there .... wise guy?[/b]

I know you dont believe in Jesus Christ because you conveniently ignore what He said, but he said it as well:

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
(Mark 12:29 KJV)

Originally posted by sonship

[b] Hear oh Israel (that's you sonship), the Lord your God is ONE

Okay. If this is your favorite point. Let me deal with it next (as I have time).
Maybe today. Maybe on Sunday when I return from a trip.

HOWEVER, I have ALREADY shown you that in Zechariah the God Who revealed Himself as one to Israel was [i]simult ...[text shortened]... your issue has not been ignored in that regard. But I will address the SHEMA in another manner.[/b]

I'm really not interested in your long-winded convoluted exegesis-like attempts to circumvent clear, unambiguous biblical text on the godhead. I've pointed out to what the Bible says repeatedly:

Hear (listen and do not be confused, pay attention), oh Israel (all believers down through the millennia including you sonship), the Lord (Jehovah in his entirety), is ONE.

That's ONE, just ONE.

That's not TWO, or THREE... and FOUR is definitely out of the question - [a nod to 'Holy hand-grenade' from Python]

Originally posted by divegeester

I'm really not interested in your long-winded convoluted exegesis-like attempts to circumvent clear, unambiguous biblical text on the godhead. I've pointed out to what the Bible says repeatedly:
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This is just an excuse to only "understand" the Bible up to the particular bias you drive. All beyond that point is "convoluted". In the progressive unfolding of God's being and God' plan Deuteronomy 6:4-9 is not the conclusion of the word of God.

If God had intended the Deuteronomy 6:4-9 be the end of His revelation then everything could have come to an end right there.

Now I don't care if by this time in my writing, your eyes have glazed over and all else I write you dismiss as "convoluted". But some will see if you refuse to see.

I'm really not interested in your long-winded convoluted exegesis-like attempts to circumvent clear, unambiguous biblical text on the godhead. I've pointed out to what the Bible says repeatedly:
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Zechariah 2:8-11 unambiguously (yet mysteriously) says that Jehovah of hosts Who is One - is simultaneously the One sent and the Sender.

Isaiah 9:6 unambiguously predicts that the Mighty God will be born as a child and the Eternal Father will be a given son.

Genesis 1:26,27 is unambiguously a revelation that God [singular] created man in His own image and said "Let Us make man" in so doing.

Now you may get tired of reading, but I could on and on. Like Jesus told Satan in the wilderness, we not only have to known what the Scripture says. We have to know what ALSO the Scripture says.

We have to know what Deuteronomy 6:4-9 says and we have to know what ELSE the Scripture says.



Hear (listen and do not be confused, pay attention), oh Israel (all believers down through the millennia including you sonship), the Lord (Jehovah in his entirety), is ONE.
That's ONE, just ONE.
That's not TWO, or THREE... and FOUR is definitely out of the question ...
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Thankyou. And as Jesus told the tempter in the wilderness "Again ... it is written ...". I reserve the right to believe all that the Bible tells me about this Wonderful God.

You can be short-winded and twist the meaning of the full revelation of God.
The Devil was very short-winded and unambiguous when he tempted Jesus -

" If You are the Son of God, cast Yourself down; for it is written, To His angels He shall give charge concerning You, and on their hands they shall bear you up, lest You strike Your foot against a stone.' " (Matt. 3:6b)

The Devil was very concise and short-winded, even very biblical.
But the Son of God perceived the subtlety and told his what AGAIN was written.

"Jesus said to him, Again, it is written, You shall not test the Lord your God." (Matt. 3:7)

Now, you can tune out at my long-winded writing if you wish. I don't care.

==================================================================
Now for readers who are still paying attention. There is an error in making TOO much a point that Jesus only came about in the birth from Mary.

The Bible says that God sent FORTH His Son.

" But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under law." (Gal. 4:5)

This One "SENT FORTH was pre-existent and became incarnated in creation. The prophet Micah tells us that the goings forth of this One was from eternity.

" From you [Bethlehem Ephrathah] shall come forth to Me He who is to be Ruler in Israel;

And His goings forth are from ancient times, From the days of eternity." (See Micah 5:2)

Yes - Jesus was a man and man is a part of the creation of God.
But Who Jesus was was also of One who is from eternity.
God is from eternity.

Not only is this born King of Israel one from the days of eternity, that fact that He is coming forth to be unto God " from you there will come forth to Me" already indicates something mysteriously triune (or at least multi-manifested) about God.

The divine revelation of the Bible not only contains Deuteronomy 6:4-9 but John 1:1,14 which (in short wind) reveals that the Word who was God became flesh. And this Word who was God was also somehow "with God".

'We" is a plural pronoun referring to more than one.

" ... and We [Father and Son] will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)

"Us" is also a plural pronoun referring to more than one.

" That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us ..." (John 17:21)

In the Old Testament, we were already told that the God Who is ONE used the plural pronoun "Us" and "Our" in His creation of the crown of His universe - man.

" And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ... And God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him ..." (See Genesis 1:26,27)

If the word of God did not want to be altogether "long-winded" then it probably would not have been composed of 66 books written over 1600 years.

Deuteronomy 6:4-9 is still under my discussion.

Something was made of Jesus not being in existence until His birth from Mary.
I agree but too much cannot be made of this as if the One born was not God incarnate.

In Philippians Paul says Christ Jesus existed in the form of God. So we cannot overly play the aspect of Jesus being a created man to the point of denying the incarnation of God.

" ... Christ Jesus, Who existing in the form of God did not consider being equal with God a treasure to be grasped." (Phil. 5b,6)

The questions the Bible student should ask include:

1.) Does Christ Jesus ... existing int the form of God mean pretty much the same thing a " the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1) ?

I think it means probably the same thing. So that makes Christ Jesus God as much as the Word was God.

2.) When it says that this Christ Jesus did not regard His equality with God "a treasure to be grasped" does this mean to grasp at something He DIDN'T possess or something that He DID possess?

I think it means that He did not count what He actually POSSESSED as the treasure to be grasped. Thus He underwent incarnation as the following sentences tell us. And even He died and that on a cruel cross. See Phil. 2:8-9.

3.) Though it is true that Jesus was the born child Who we may consider as new to the scene, we cannot over emphasize it because Paul says of the One pre-existing that He was "Christ Jesus".

So what has this all to do with the Lord Israel's God is one ?

The Father highly exalts this One for His obedience and gives Him a name which is above every name.

"And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself becoming obedient unto death, and that the death of a cross.

THEREFORE ... also God highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth.

And every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (vs. 8-11)

This is said concerning Jehovah God Himself in the OT.

ISAIAH 45:23 - " I have sworned by Myself; A word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness and will not return,

That every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall swear. It shall be said of Me,

Only in Jehovah is there righteousness and strength."

Originally posted by divegeester
I don't see how any of this refutes my position.

So according to you, "The Father" is not the first and the last the Alpha and the Omega?

So according to you, "The Father" is not the first and the last the Alpha and the Omega?

The Speaker of the sentence that He is the Alpha and the Omega is "the Almighty" .

If God the Father is not "the Almighty" I don't know who ELSE is.
Therefore the Speaker informing us that He is the Alpha and the Omega is the Father incarnate coming on the clouds of heaven.

" Behold He comes with the clouds ... I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, He who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty." (Rev. 1:7a,8)

It should be apparent that the first and last letter of the Greek alphabet means about God what "the First and the Last" would mean or "The Beginning and the End" would mean.

And since the great prophecy of Isaiah 9:6 says that the Son given is called "Eternal Father" the Bible's revelation is that the Father is incarnate as a given Son and a born child.

Furthermore, the one on the clouds in the second coming is seen in Fevelation 14 as like "the Son of Man". So God, the Almighty, the First and the Last, is coming as the Son of Man in the second advent.

" And I saw, and behold, there was a white cloud, and on the clud One like the Son of Man sitting, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand ... And He who sat on the cloud thrust His sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped." (See Rev. 14:14-16)

The Son of Man is the incarnation of the Almighty.
The Son of God is the incarnation of the Eternal Father.

Also Jesus said that this one coming on the clouds and seated at the right hand of power was Himself.

" And the high priest said to Him, I charge You to swear by the living God to tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God.

Jesus said to him, You have said rightly. Nevertheless I say to you, From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:63b,64)

Jesus, the Son of Man is the Almighty, the incarnation of the Eternal Father.
And He is Jehovah God as a man.