Originally posted by chappy1Maybe your not listening, or your media is being censored. If I were you I would be extremely worried.
If all of this militant Islam worldwide is so wrong then where are it's critics? Where are the Imams that condemn the acts of violence? I never hear of anyone rebuking these acts.
On 9 / 11 I remember there was a Muslim who condemned the act and wanted to donate a large sum of money but his offer was declined.
I personally know several Muslims and all of them have said that terrorism is not right and unIslamic. I have also seen news reports of various high ranking Imams world wide condemning terrorism.
I say again, if you haven't heard, then you should be very worried about who is censoring your media and why.
Originally posted by ahosyneyIn another thread I raised this point which Scherzo unwillingly agreed was correct .... Did the Koran state that Allah gave the Land of Palestine to the Jews? Actually I am not asking, I am telling you that both the Koran and the Bible state this and you are aware of it.
..But a Muslim who defend his land against those who occupy it are not wrong. ..
If you adhere to the teachings of the Koran (which I know you do), why not this particular teaching? You agree that adulterers if caught by 4 witnesses should be stoned. Why are you disagreeing that the Land of Palestine belongs to the Jews? I suspecct you are caught up in the hatred predicted in the Bible between the children of Abraham.
Originally posted by Rajk999I do not know the history here, so can you clarify a few things for me.
If you adhere to the teachings of the Koran (which I know you do), why not this particular teaching? You agree that adulterers if caught by 4 witnesses should be stoned. Why are you disagreeing that the Land of Palestine belongs to the Jews? I suspecct you are caught up in the hatred predicted in the Bible between the children of Abraham.
1. What makes a Jew a Jew?
2. Who did God give the Land of Palestine to and when and under what conditions?
3. Could Muslims be categorized as Jews within the context of that promise?
4. Is there good reason why Muslims should hold that promise to be currently binding on them?
Originally posted by twhiteheadAs far as I know, and I will gladly accept correction here :
I do not know the history here, so can you clarify a few things for me.
1. What makes a Jew a Jew?
2. Who did God give the Land of Palestine to and when and under what conditions?
3. Could Muslims be categorized as Jews within the context of that promise?
4. Is there good reason why Muslims should hold that promise to be currently binding on them?
1. I think Jews are the children of Jacob.
2. To the children of Jacob in the time of Moses.
3. I dont think so. Muslims/arabs are mostly the descendents of Esau, Ismael and a few others of Abraham's line except Jacob.
4. I am not saying that history should bind the muslims to this promise. I am just wondering why a believer in the Koran would ignore that part of the holy scripture and religiously follow the rest. I know several Imams and clerics steer clear of this conflict because they know that the Land of Palestine was given to the Jews by Allah.
I am not at all claiming the Jews are correct.
Originally posted by ahosyneyWhat did we just see recently that allows the killing of babies in the Bible? Are you referring to the recent violence in Gaza? If you are uh, then you are gravely misinformed because Gaza was attacked by Israel (a Jewish nation) not a Christian nation. They use the Torah not the Bible (and yes I am aware that the Torah is the first ...what 5 books of the Old Testament). But I disagree that this conflict prooves your point. Israel has a right to defend itself against Hamas. What are they supposed to do just sit there and allow them to rocket Israel? Enough is enough!
Because you mix things.
I know many Imams who condemn the acts of violence that doesn't match the Islamic teachings. But tell me where do you listen to them, does your media show that, no, it is always meant to show Islam as evil and you are happy with that. And to do so lies are being told.
The problem is that you mix the self defense with terrorism ...[text shortened]... wrote here does make any sense.
EDIT: a question for you: How many GOD's you worship??
I have read it for myself.
Oh, I worship the one true God. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Thanks for asking.
Originally posted by Rajk999I don't really understand what you are saying,
A terrorist is defined by his METHOD, not by his cause.
Im sure you know that, but your aim is to willfully distort the facts.
A terrorist is defined by his METHOD, not by his cause.
Not only that,
Mainly it is defined by his target.
- If he targets children or civilian then he is a Terrorist what ever the method is.
- If he targets an army that is attacking his country then he is not a terrorist what ever the method is.
I'm sure you know that, but your aim is to willfully distort the facts.
Sir, give me one common definition of a terrorist that everyone on earth uses then you can claim that I distort facts.
Originally posted by ahosyneyI disagree. I do realize that Bush went to great lengths to define anyone he didn't like as a terrorist.
Mainly it is defined by his target.
- If he targets children or civilian then he is a Terrorist what ever the method is.
- If he targets an army that is attacking his country then he is not a terrorist what ever the method is.
The definition of a terrorist that I would go with is a person whos act is deliberately designed to incite terror. If the main purpose of the attack is to make your opponent afraid of you, then you are a terrorist.
Hence an assassination is not an act of terrorism as the main purpose of the action is to kill the target.
Once could characterize the US nuclear bombs on Japan as partially terrorism. A large part of the intention was to scare the remaining people of Japan into submission. But then many acts of war do have that purpose.
Terrorism is generally frowned upon because it is most effective when civilians are targeted - especially civilians that are supporting the opponents but think they are safe from any retribution.
Originally posted by Rajk999Did the Koran state that Allah gave the Land of Palestine to the Jews?
In another thread I raised this point which Scherzo unwillingly agreed was correct .... Did the Koran state that Allah gave the Land of Palestine to the Jews? Actually I am not asking, I am telling you that both the Koran and the Bible state this and you are aware of it.
If you adhere to the teachings of the Koran (which I know you do), why not this parti ...[text shortened]... suspecct you are caught up in the hatred predicted in the Bible between the children of Abraham.
No,
Actually I am not asking, I am telling you that both the Koran and the Bible state this and you are aware of it.
If that is the case then you are wrong. My be the Bible yes but Quran no.
If you adhere to the teachings of the Koran (which I know you do), why not this particular teaching?
Yes I do, and there is no teaching in Quran that I ignore, if you know where in Quran Allah promised the land of Palestine to Jews, then go ahead show it up.
You agree that adulterers if caught by 4 witnesses should be stoned.
That is not in Quran you know, it is in Hadith. not all the teaching we follow in Quran. For example, Quran say that we have to pray, but it doesn't tell us how and when, we knew that from Hadith. I'm not sure if you know that, do you?
Why are you disagreeing that the Land of Palestine belongs to the Jews?
You believe in that because the Jews wrote that in your bible, but why should I, I don't believe in your Bible, and the Quran doesn't say so.
I suspecct you are caught up in the hatred predicted in the Bible between the children of Abraham.
I heard that from John Hagy once in TV, although in Quran it is clear that there nothing like. Both sons of Abraham in Quran are great prophets and both are Muslims, that hatred is only in the minds of the Bible writers , the Jews.
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To make things clear and using the questions of twhitehead in another post, and I will answer only from Quran,
1. What makes a Jew a Jew?
In Quran there is a big difference between Jews and sons of Isreal (Jacob).
The 12 sons of Jacob are Muslims in Quran like their father Jacob, their grandfathers Ezzak, and Ismail, and their grandfather Abraham. You can see that in many verses.
002.132
YUSUFALI: And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."
PICKTHAL: The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).
SHAKIR: And the same did Ibrahim enjoin on his sons and (so did) Yaqoub. O my sons! surely Allah has chosen for you (this) faith, therefore die not unless you are Muslims.
002.133
YUSUFALI: Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy god and the god of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac,- the one (True) Allah: To Him we bow (in Islam)."
PICKTHAL: Or were ye present when death came to Jacob, when he said unto his sons: What will ye worship after me? They said: We shall worship thy god, the god of thy fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, One Allah, and unto Him we have surrendered.
SHAKIR: Nay! were you witnesses when death visited Yaqoub, when he said to his sons: What will you serve after me? They said: We will serve your god and the god of your fathers, Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq, one Allah only, and to Him do we submit.
In these two verses it is clear that the religion of all the prophets is Islam. In the following verse you will see that Quran declare that Abraham , and his sons, and the sons of Jacob are not Jews.
002.140
YUSUFALI: Or do ye say that Abraham, Isma'il Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know better than Allah? Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from Allah? but Allah is not unmindful of what ye do!
PICKTHAL: Or say ye that Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know best, or doth Allah? And who is more unjust than he who hideth a testimony which he hath received from Allah? Allah is not unaware of what ye do.
SHAKIR: Nay! do you say that Ibrahim and Ismail and Yaqoub and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Are you better knowing or Allah? And who is more unjust than he who conceals a testimony that he has from Allah? And Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.
Again I gave here three different translations, for clearer meaning.
And here you can see the same meaning for Abraham.
[i]
003.067
YUSUFALI: Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.
PICKTHAL: Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters.
SHAKIR: Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists.
Saying so the Quran define Judiasm as a religion made by modifying the message of Mosses. And Jews are the people who are following this religion.
They may be from the sons of Jacob, but not necessarily. And in all cases their religion is not accepted from Allah, and so their claims.
005.018
YUSUFALI: (Both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of Allah, and his beloved." Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men,- of the men he hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)"
PICKTHAL: The Jews and Christians say: We are sons of Allah and His loved ones. Say: Why then doth He chastise you for your sins? Nay, ye are but mortals of His creating. He forgiveth whom He will, and chastiseth whom He will. Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and unto Him is the journeying.
SHAKIR: And the Jews and the Christians say: We are the sons of Allah and His beloved ones. Say: Why does He then chastise you for your faults? Nay, you are mortals from among those whom He has created, He forgives whom He pleases and chastises whom He pleases; and Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them, and to Him is the eventual coming.
So Allah (GOD) didn't give the Jews their name, and he didn't give them Judaism as a religion, and neither in Quran not in the Bible (as far as I know) did Moses say that his religion is Judaism.
2. Who did God give the Land of Palestine to and when and under what conditions?
In Quran there is nothing about the land of Palastine in specific. There is only one thing you may find in Quran, And it was given to the sons of Isreal at the time of Mosses, and with a condition that they didn't follow. Read the following verses:
[b][i]
005.020
YUSUFALI: Remember Moses said to his people: "O my people! Call in remembrance the favour of Allah unto you, when He produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave you what He had not given to any other among the peoples.
PICKTHAL: And (remember) when Moses said unto his people: O my people! Remember Allah's favour unto you, how He placed among you prophets, and He made you kings, and gave you that (which) He gave not to any (other) of (His) creatures.
SHAKIR: And when Musa said to his people: O my people! remember the favor of Allah upon you when He raised prophets among you and made you kings and gave you what He had not given to any other among the nations.
005.021
YUSUFALI: "O my people! Enter the holy land which Allah hath assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin."
PICKTHAL: O my people! Go into the holy land which Allah hath ordained for you. Turn not in flight, for surely ye turn back as losers:
SHAKIR: O my people! enter the holy land which Allah has prescribed for you and turn not on your backs for then you will turn back losers.
005.022
YUSUFALI: They said: "O Moses! In this land are a people of exceeding strength: Never shall we enter it until they leave it: if (once) they leave, then shall we enter."
PICKTHAL: They said: O Moses! Lo! a giant people (dwell) therein and lo! we go not in till they go forth from thence. When they go forth from thence, then we will enter (not till then).
SHAKIR: They said: O Musa! surely there is a strong race in it, and we will on no account enter it until they go out from it, so if they go out from it, then surely we will enter.
005.023
YUSUFALI: (But) among (their) Allah-fearing men were two on whom Allah had bestowed His grace: They said: "Assault them at the (proper) Gate: when once ye are in, victory will be yours; But on Allah put your trust if ye have faith."
PICKTHAL: Then out spake two of those who feared (their Lord, men) unto whom Allah had been gracious: Enter in upon them by the gate, for if ye enter by it, lo! ye will be victorious. So put your trust (in Allah) if ye are indeed believers.
SHAKIR: Two men of those who feared, upon both of whom Allah had bestowed a favor, said: Enter upon them by the gate, for when you have entered it you shall surely be victorious, and on Allah should you rely if you are believers.
005.024
YUSUFALI: They said: "O Moses! while they remain there, never shall we be able to enter, to the end of time. Go thou, and thy Lord, and fight ye two, while we sit here (and watch)."
PICKTHAL: They said: O Moses! We will never enter (the land) while they are in it. So go thou and thy Lord and fight! We will sit here.
SHAKIR: They said: O Musa! we shall never enter it so long as they are in it; go therefore you and your Lord, then fight you both surely we will here sit down.
005.025
YUSUFALI: He said: "O my Lord! I have power only over myself and my brother: so separate us from this rebellious people!"
PIC...
My post continued............
2. Who did God give the Land of Palestine to and when and under what conditions?
In Quran there is nothing about the land of Palastine in specific. There is only one thing you may find in Quran, And it was given to the sons of Isreal at the time of Mosses, and with a condition that they didn't follow. Read the following verses:
005.020
YUSUFALI: Remember Moses said to his people: "O my people! Call in remembrance the favour of Allah unto you, when He produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave you what He had not given to any other among the peoples.
PICKTHAL: And (remember) when Moses said unto his people: O my people! Remember Allah's favour unto you, how He placed among you prophets, and He made you kings, and gave you that (which) He gave not to any (other) of (His) creatures.
SHAKIR: And when Musa said to his people: O my people! remember the favor of Allah upon you when He raised prophets among you and made you kings and gave you what He had not given to any other among the nations.
005.021
YUSUFALI: "O my people! Enter the holy land which Allah hath assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin."
PICKTHAL: O my people! Go into the holy land which Allah hath ordained for you. Turn not in flight, for surely ye turn back as losers:
SHAKIR: O my people! enter the holy land which Allah has prescribed for you and turn not on your backs for then you will turn back losers.
005.022
YUSUFALI: They said: "O Moses! In this land are a people of exceeding strength: Never shall we enter it until they leave it: if (once) they leave, then shall we enter."
PICKTHAL: They said: O Moses! Lo! a giant people (dwell) therein and lo! we go not in till they go forth from thence. When they go forth from thence, then we will enter (not till then).
SHAKIR: They said: O Musa! surely there is a strong race in it, and we will on no account enter it until they go out from it, so if they go out from it, then surely we will enter.
005.023
YUSUFALI: (But) among (their) Allah-fearing men were two on whom Allah had bestowed His grace: They said: "Assault them at the (proper) Gate: when once ye are in, victory will be yours; But on Allah put your trust if ye have faith."
PICKTHAL: Then out spake two of those who feared (their Lord, men) unto whom Allah had been gracious: Enter in upon them by the gate, for if ye enter by it, lo! ye will be victorious. So put your trust (in Allah) if ye are indeed believers.
SHAKIR: Two men of those who feared, upon both of whom Allah had bestowed a favor, said: Enter upon them by the gate, for when you have entered it you shall surely be victorious, and on Allah should you rely if you are believers.
005.024
YUSUFALI: They said: "O Moses! while they remain there, never shall we be able to enter, to the end of time. Go thou, and thy Lord, and fight ye two, while we sit here (and watch)."
PICKTHAL: They said: O Moses! We will never enter (the land) while they are in it. So go thou and thy Lord and fight! We will sit here.
SHAKIR: They said: O Musa! we shall never enter it so long as they are in it; go therefore you and your Lord, then fight you both surely we will here sit down.
005.025
YUSUFALI: He said: "O my Lord! I have power only over myself and my brother: so separate us from this rebellious people!"
PICKTHAL: He said: My Lord! I have control of none but myself and my brother, so distinguish between us and the wrong-doing folk.
SHAKIR: He said: My Lord! Surely I have no control (upon any) but my own self and my brother; therefore make a separation between us and the nation of transgressors.
005.026
YUSUFALI: Allah said: "Therefore will the land be out of their reach for forty years: In distraction will they wander through the land: But sorrow thou not over these rebellious people.
PICKTHAL: (Their Lord) said: For this the land will surely be forbidden them for forty years that they will wander in the earth, bewildered. So grieve not over the wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: He said: So it shall surely be forbidden to them for forty years, they shall wander about in the land, therefore do not grieve for the nation of transgressors.
Here Quran talks about a land given to Mosses and his followers after going out from Egypt, and the condition was to fight, but they was so afraid and refused to do so, and it was later forbidden for them for 40 years.
And here Quran don't call them Jews, they are called the people of Mosses. And as Mosses is a prophet like any other prophet, he is by default Muslim as well. And his message was Islam not by any way Judaism.
3. Could Muslims be categorized as Jews within the context of that promise?
As I explained before it is totally not like that. If there is a promise it is given to Muslims. I'm talking of course about the context of Quran.
The message of prophet Mohammed to return Jews, and Christians to the original religion of Mosses, Jacob, Issak and Abraham. Some accepted it and some refused it.
4. Is there good reason why Muslims should hold that promise to be currently binding on them?
No reason at all, Jews of today has nothing to do with the original religion of Allah, and so if they are given a promise one day it doesn't apply to them anymore.
--------------------------------------------
Hope you can show me where in Quran Allah promised the land of Palestine to Jews?
To make you search easy, the word palatine doesn't exist in Quran.
Originally posted by twhiteheadI have no specific objection here, all what I wanted to say, is that method is not the only way to classify a specific act as an act of terror.
I disagree. I do realize that Bush went to great lengths to define anyone he didn't like as a terrorist.
The definition of a terrorist that I would go with is a person whos act is deliberately designed to incite terror. If the main purpose of the attack is to make your opponent afraid of you, then you are a terrorist.
Hence an assassination is not an ...[text shortened]... ially civilians that are supporting the opponents but think they are safe from any retribution.
But as you said no specific definition that everyone agrees upon, so everyone will select the definition that matches his needs and agenda. For example USA classify any person, organization, according to one definition:
"If you are not with us then you are a terrorist"
------
if the main purpose of the attack is to make your opponent afraid of you, then you are a terrorist.
According to that definition then what Isreal did in Gaza is an act of terrorism. It is clear it was a message to the people of Gaza:
"Stop supporting Hamas or you will die"
This is going to be turned to a GAZA thread now!!!
Originally posted by chappy1You answered yourself, what Isreal used is a teaching that exist in Torah which is the first part of your Bible.
What did we just see recently that allows the killing of babies in the Bible? Are you referring to the recent violence in Gaza? If you are uh, then you are gravely misinformed because Gaza was attacked by Israel (a Jewish nation) not a Christian nation. They use the Torah not the Bible (and yes I am aware that the Torah is the first ...what 5 books of the ...[text shortened]... hip the one true God. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Thanks for asking.
If you don't know some Rabbis used there verses from the bible to say that there is no problem to kill Children in Gaza:
(king James Version)(1 Samuel)(1Sm-15-3)(Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.)
(Contemporary English Version)(1 Samuel)(1Sm-15-3)( "Go and attack the Amalekites! Destroy them and all their possessions. Don't have any pity. Kill their men, women, children, and even their babies. Slaughter their cattle, sheep, camels, and donkeys." )
They said the position of the Palestinians is the same as that of Amlekites, and so it is okay to do for Palestinians what happened to Amalekites.
---------------------------------------------
I have read it for myself.
I didn't see that, if you read it you wouldn't have started this thread.
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Oh, I worship the one true God. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Thanks for asking.
Oh man, you are talking about three persons, three GODs.
Where in the Bible did the one true God said what have just said.
There is nothing called God the son the Bible, if you know where is it please tell me.
There is nothing called God the Holy Spirit in the Bible, if you know where is it please tell me.
More than that, there is only one true GOD in the Bible, when Jesus talked to the father he said:
(king James Version)(John)(Jn-17-3)(And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.)
Originally posted by ahosyneyNewton would have agreed with you 🙂
More than that, there is only one true GOD in the Bible, when Jesus talked to the father he said:
(king James Version)(John)(Jn-17-3)(And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.)
Originally posted by ahosyneyGod the Father is scattered throughout the Bible so I don't think I need to indicate where.
You answered yourself, what Isreal used is a teaching that exist in Torah which is the first part of your Bible.
If you don't know some Rabbis used there verses from the bible to say that there is no problem to kill Children in Gaza:
[b]
(king James Version)(1 Samuel)(1Sm-15-3)(Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare ...[text shortened]... rnal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.)
The Holy Spirit
Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empy, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
Acts 2:4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
The Son
John 1:1-5, 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made, without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. ...The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
...just a couple of examples for you.